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On Love - Mzet
Bernd, you write about "the slow and agonizing
process of learning to let go", and "not
wanting Lynda to change a thing".
I wanted to offer a couple of reflections triggered by
some of your posts to see if you think I am on target. I
know it sounds sooo paradoxical…Help! Here it goes:
One of the things I have finally accepted rationally,
and emotionally, little by little and with much, much
pain, is that love is a free choice on my part only after
I have totally stopped needing my wife. Otherwise I am
not making a choice, I am only acting on a feeling of
dependency (or, as when we got married, on a feeling of
"being in love"). Is love love only when we
chose our partner in spite of our not needing them? I
think so, and one of the things my wife’s affair is
forcing me to face, then, is to brake my emotional
dependence on her. If the definition of love as a choice
rather than a feeling is correct, then, in a sense, I
need to be an emotionally independent self or person
before I can really love her. Does this make sense to
you?
The second thing I am slowly accepting is that I have
to stop wanting her to change, to love me back, to stop
her affair, etc. It is one thing to accept rationally
that that is the way to go. I have known that for some
time. It is something else to actually live by it.
There are two ways of accomplishing what I have stated
above: one is to have an affair myself, to numb the pain
and "love" and feel "loved", etc. But
that, I think, is a temporary fix and goes against
becoming an emotionally independent person as stated
above (though the sex would be nice!). The other, more
permanent way, is to turn to the inside, to learn to get
in touch with the "I" in its deepest aspects.
The more I travel down that second path, inside, the more
I realize that what’s inside is God. (And this
coming from an atheist! Or former atheist, I should say).
That "I" in its deepest aspects is God’s
presence inside of me. In a sense, once I am in touch
with that deepest aspect of myself, I can really love
totally and unconditionally, (i.e., to want and to
actively encourage her happiness, even if it means
encouraging choices that hurt me, for to love is to live
for God by dying to self: Jesus on the cross), because it
is not my human love (that is more want and need than
love and that has all sorts of conditions attached to it)
but it is God’s love through me. Does this make any
sense to anybody? Is this too esoteric? Is it a cop-out?
Now, there is this side of me that is saying that if I
do all of that she’ll love me back. I think I have
also finally recognized that that will not necessarily be
the case. She may chose to leave or to divorce me. But
what I do know is that if I do not do all of that, there
is no way I can heal and grow and there is no way
she’ll come back or that if she does come back, our
relationship will be built on shaky ground once again.
Does this also make sense?
 From: cindy
Hi metz. Whatever happened to wanting something
healthy, honest and secure. What you have to realize is
that whatever the reasons your wife doesn't love you
anymore, you have to accept it. Build on something new.
I'm not saying go out and find someone new tomorrow, but
don't wait to long to date. You can find inner love
within yourself,and self dependency. But for how long. If
you want something happy and loving go out and find it. I
don't mean to go looking physically for a women to take
your wife's place but don't stop yourself from meeting
new people, I personally think you should go out and be
with friends and meet new people, It sounds like you've
put more then enough into this relationship then
deserved. You in a sense are being your own worse enemy.
If you walk into a cage were you know a lion is going to
hurt you, why go in. Stay away and be safe somewhere
else. A person can only wait so long. I think your wife
has said more then enough to you. Stop hurting yourself,
get on with your life. I no it's easier said then done,
but look at what's happening are things getting better.
It sounds like there only getting worse. I hope you find
yourself and what you truly need. Take care.
From: Bernd
It's like stepping closer to a tapestry. When you're
far away, the picture you see is fuzzy, and hard to make
out. As you get closer, you begin to see more of ALL the
pictures it contains, and as you get closer still, you
begin to see how all the little threads that seem
inconsequential on their own combine in mysterious ways
to make something that is awe-inspiring, and much more
than the sum of all its parts.
You're getting closer to your tapestry, and you're
beginning to see that what didn't make sense from a
distance, is beginning to fit in place more now. Hadta
say that.:)
Ok, the practical stuff. It's not necessary to stop
"needing your wife". Acknowledging your needs
is what I believe will help you more. If you accept those
needs, you can be a lot more honest with yourself when
those needs are the driving force behind your choices,
instead of your inner voice being the driving force. When
a car has 2 drivers struggling for the wheel, a crash is
a lot more likely. Your needs are ok. To me, making
loving choices means accepting whatever ways Lynda
chooses to help take care of my needs, and finding other
ways of taking care of those needs she isn't comfortable
handling. There's a term for that: interdependence. It
means that partners are dependent on those things each is
COMFORTABLE with, and that dependence is open and honest,
and of free choice, not obligation or pressure.
I wanted to comment on your line "to actively
encourage her happiness, even if it means encouraging
choices that hurt me". Mzet, any choice she makes
that hurts you also hurts her. It's impossible to enhance
someone else's happiness by encouraging choices that hurt
them and another person. It may help to look at her
"hurtful" choices with a different perspective:
is a particular choice "harming" you, or is it
"triggering" pain that's inside you, or is the
pain actually coming from YOUR choices in how you react
or deal with her? If you can ask yourself those questions
when you feel pain over a choice she makes, you may find
it gives you back more power over your own peace of mind.
Here's an example: you suspect she's seen her old
boyfriend yesterday, and you ask her if she has. She says
no, but later you find irrefutable evidence she has, and
the hurt just pours thru you. Where is the hurt actually
coming from? If you look at whether you are expecting her
to be different than she is, there's one source. If you
expect her to be honest about something that she finds it
extremely difficult to be honest about, there's another
source. If you believe her choices are robbing you of
happiness and peace of mind, you are making her your
higher power, not God. And that hurts. (I know all too
well!) The more we make choices based on the acceptance
of "what is", instead of the way we want things
to be, the more control we get over our own happiness.
Support her RIGHT to make her own choices. Give your
opinion the best you can when invited, and trust the
process for her, as well as yourself.
Finally, it's my firm belief that she DOES love you,
as much as she's capable of loving ANYONE right now. It
may seem as if she "loves" her boyfriend more,
but that's an illusion. She "feels" more of the
feelings she associates with love with him, but
dishonesty and love are like oil and water - they don't
mix. Every choice she makes that supports your being is
part of that love. You can find examples of it in a lot
of small things, something as simple as listening to you
when you say a few words to her. The fact that's she's
struggling to find answers is a very powerful sign of
that love. We don't struggle over something we don't care
anything about. It may not be the amount of love, or the
kinds of love you want most, but it is love nonetheless.
Sometimes we trample all over the dandelions looking for
a rose. The more you can search for, and discover all the
little ways she is saying "I love you", the
more your heart will sing. And she wants to hear that
song in her heart too. The more she hears yours, the more
she'll find the courage and the faith to believe that
same song really exists inside her too. Does the word
"harmony" ring a bell here?:)
Boy, if only I had gotten the answers you're getting
as quickly when I was going thru my swamp. Where were YOU
when I needed ya bud?????:)
From: Mzet
As usual, what you say makes so much sense. Man, you
are somehow able to dig deeper and deeper, and after I
think I have reached bottom you indicate that it is
perhaps a ledge and invite me (us) to look beyond, in
different, perhaps more profound ways. It is truly
fascinating. And helpful. And beautiful.
I have struggled with the meaning of "letting
go" throughout my wife’s affair. Does it mean
stop asking for closeness, stop asking for communication,
stop asking for a hug, a touch of hands? Does it mean
stop needing her? Does it mean stop meeting her needs,
however few and inconsequential?
You indicate that it does not and I agree. You hit it
right on: to make loving choices is to accept whatever
needs your spouse chooses to meet and to find other ways
of taking care of the needs he or she is unable or
unwilling to meet. It sounds so simple but it is so
extremely difficult and painful. But it is the only way.
Her choices don’t "harm" me. You are
right again. It’s not that I "believe"
that her choices rob me of my happiness and my self
esteem and my peace. No. It’s just that THAT is how
it feels. They just trigger a lot of pain. That, I think,
is the reverse side of what I mean when I say that I am
"dependent" on her. To become a full person, I
somehow have to live through that pain, acknowledge
it’s source and find "something" inside of
me that can fulfil my self. If I keep looking for someone
else to completely fulfil my self I will continue to get
hurt. I would just be expecting too much out of that
person. I can’t look for a greater reality in the
object of my desire than is actually there or a greater
fulfilment than any thing or anybody is capable of
giving. All of us are full of contradictions. We all a
little of heaven and a little of hell. And the anguish of
our own hell is the disorder of our misguided desires
that insist on looking for what is not there,
particularly when we end up worshipping ourselves, our
false selves, by means of our spouses. And to worship our
false selves is to worship nothingness. And to be trapped
there is to be trapped in hell. (These ideas are partly
derived from Thomas Merton)
I have wondered WHY we fall out of love, throughout my
adult life and particularly throughout my wife’s
affair. I don’t mean the practical why, i.e., she
fell in love with somebody else or he didn’t meet my
emotional needs, etc., etc. But in a larger cosmic scale,
why? I think the answer lies somewhere hidden behind our
own selves, or better, our own broken selves. The answer
does not seem to be in our spouses, nor their lovers, nor
the marriage relationship, nor even what we each did or
did not do to cause the falling out of love or the
affair. The unveiling of that answer for both spouses has
to do, I am convinced, with our relationship with
ourselves and with God. If and only if we are finally are
able to love God perfectly, whatever that means, and to
accept God's perfect love, like the prodigal son, only
then can we break through the barrier of our own false
selves, our own invented masks, our own propositions
about life, our own created hells, our nothingness, and
become fully human. Only then will the why make sense.
And only then will we able to incorporate and transcend
the why and simply BE, fully.
Your response also triggered the whole issue of my
wife’s "love" for me. She has stated time
and since late January '97 that not only does she not
love me, but she feels nothing for me, not even anything
negative. "I just don’t care, I am oblivious to
you, I am indifferent". I know that she is confused
about what love is. I was too until a few weeks ago. I
never understood that love was a decision. In that sense,
you are right in stating that she loves me as much as she
can love anyone right now. And I am slowly seeing that
there are small ways in which she is showing that little
bit of love: she does listen every now and then, she does
respond to my calls for closeness, we do go out by
ourselves still, etc. And she is struggling to figure out
where she stands. I do need to be more attentive to her
little ways of saying I love you, despite their
microscopic size and their not being the kind of love I
want. And I will sing to them. And maybe those notes will
resonate in her heart and create a chord or two, however
dissonant.
Bernd, I’m not sure the answers come to me
quickly, like you say. It’s been a long time, too
long, but worthwhile nevertheless. And I don’t know
where I was when you needed me, probably in the bliss of
being "in love", thinking THAT was love. Plus,
the internet was the purview of researchers and defence
contractors, not relationship builders.
From: Diane
This conversation has touched me very deeply. Bernd
and Mzet, you are wise, ancient angels.
Mzet, always remember & cherish the beauty and
vastness of you and what's yours, and perhaps these
difficulties with your wife won't seem so pervasive, and
your times of peacefulness will be longer-lasting.
From: Mzet
I have to agree with what you write, Diane. I do hope
that regardless of the final outcome that I will be able
to look back and say that despite the pain, what I
learned about myself and what I found there was
invaluable and and worth every second of it.
0:-) Wise ancient angels? Maybe wise, maybe, maybe,
just maybe, angels too, but definitively not ancient. I'm
getting to that age where I start getting a little bit
uncomfortable with adjectives like ancient. What do you
think Bernd? You do sound more ancient to me, wouldn't
you agree? :*)
From: Bernd
You are an inspiration to me, and I believe others
here Mzet.
Just a quick comment on your line about "our own
created hells". There's a quote in the Bible that
goes something like this: "the sins of the father
are passed unto the son". Our hells aren't
self-created: we've all learned to cope the best we can
with the shit that came to us from many directions, not
only our parents. It is very much like a disease process.
We have become ill from the "viruses"
(dysfunctions) that were all around us during our
childhood, and adult years. Blaming ourselves for
creating our own hell is not unlike blaming ourselves for
having the flu. What we CAN do is take responsibility for
our emotional and spiritual illness, and find healthy
ways of treating it, and healing it, while taking care as
best we can not to infect others (treat others badly), as
well as we're able. I KNOW I infect others, I know I
treat others badly, but in doing what I can to heal
myself, at least it's not as hidden as before, and every
day I get a little better, I also become healthier to be
around. It's win/win. The less I blame myself, the less I
find judging or blaming others that are struggling with
their own disease process.
Hmm, I guess it's hard for me to make a "short
comment":)
From: Mzet
Bernd, here's one of those practical questions. From
the very start of her affair I have asked (really,
demanded) that she remain honest with me. "Tell me
the truth, even if it sucks, even if you think it will
hurt me". But I catch her lying, constantly. She has
never volunteered except the most innocuous information.
I have found out the tough stuff by confronting her. And
it does hurt when I do and it makes me soooo angry when I
recognize she's turn into such a deceitful person.
You stated in passing that perhaps the person having
the affair finds it extremely difficult to be honest. I
have long ago stopped expecting the truth from her. But
here's my question: Should I also stop ASKING her for the
truth since, like you say, she finds it so difficult to
be honest?
In a sense asking for the truth and catching her lying
has been about the last thing that I have to let her know
that I am not that dumb, that I know what's going on and
to force her to confront herself.
I guess I am answering my question, in the sense that
from her perspective that confrontation with the lies
becomes a hammer I wield and ultimately becomes an
attempt to control her.
But on the other hand, I wonder if she would still
feel that she is deceiving me if I stop confronting her.
Will that give her a tacit approval to continue to see
the lover? I have told her that though I am not going to
initiate the divorce just because she has an affair, I
totally disapprove of it because not only does it go
against our vows (Ha! As if they really carried much
weight!) but because it puts our children and the family
at risk and especially because it is harmful to herself.
What do you think? Man, I don't know what else I can
give up after that. :)
From: Bernd
I had a long, ongoing struggle with that question too.
The more I practised listening to my inner voice tho, the
more it dawned on me that part of me ALWAYS knew the
truth. It was willing to tell me the truth; Lynda was
not. I needed honesty from Lynda because I wasn't willing
to trust my inner voice with something "that
precious". When I did take that leap of faith tho, I
was able to let go needing honesty from Lynda.
So in hindsight, her dishonesty was exactly what I
needed. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had the motivation
(pain *grin*) to take that leap of faith, in trusting
that my soul always KNEW. To find out what it
"knew", I had to take the time to listen, very
carefully. And that helped my healing a lot, practicing
that kind of listening. Just one more note on this: our
souls tell us what we NEED to know, when we need it and
are ready for it. It doesn't tell us what we WANT to
know, because there are many times when what we want, and
what we really need, are 2 very different things.
Regarding whether not asking for honesty is condoning
dishonesty, the most powerful way we condone dishonesty
is by being dishonest ourselves. If we make our choices
with integrity as best we can, the clear message we send
is that we VALUE honesty and truth, and do so with our
actions as well as our words. I value honesty because
it's the most selfish thing I can do - it always leads me
and others toward win/win. It results in good stuff
coming back to me - maybe not right away, but sooner or
later. Your wife wants the "good stuff" too;
her dishonesty has its own natural consequences; she
feels them sooner or later, and there's nothing you need
to add to those consequences - they come back to her on
their own. In fact, when we try to add to natural
consequences by inflicting our own judgement or
punishments, what we often do is distract the other
person from feeling the natural consequences, and the
whispers of their own inner voice saying "your
dishonesty is hurting YOU".
Her soul is sending her plenty of messages that her
dishonesty is hurting her. Trusting your own inner voice
for the truth helps bring more calm to you, and the more
calmness you have around her, the harder it becomes for
her to drown out the whispers coming from inside her.
When all our efforts haven't made a dent, "letting
go" gives God a chance to REALLY talk one-on-one
with the one we love. Let go, and let God. That's how it
works.:)
From: Lynda
Hi Mzet. I can only speak from my own experience on
the “ lying” re my affair and what I was doing
to myself. As long as Bernd was being my “dance
partner” in regards to my honesty with myself and
with him,i.e.( pointing out my character defects and
needing me to change) I was focused on HIM...I was using
whatever ammo he would give me to further justify why I
was having the affair in the first place. I
didn’’t have to look at ME. It was only after
he was able to take the focus off of me that I was left
alone with myself and what was happening to me and had to
fully feel the pain and anguish that was inside. Then I
had no one else to blame for my actions or feelings, no
distraction from him. I either had to feel them or shut
down totally. It was THE loneliest time of my life, even
my boyfriend couldn’t fill that void. My dance was
that Bernd would give me the bad feelings and then I
would go to my boyfriend to get good feelings and justify
that “yes, it is Bernd giving me the bad
feelings”. When that was no longer the case, I had
to finally admit to myself that I was giving me the bad
feelings all by myself.....he was just a good trigger at
times. That realization brought with it a lot of shame on
my part....an awakening so to speak...it was like waking
up from a dream and looking around and seeing my actions
thru clearer eyes...seeing what everyone else had been
able to see all along,but I had refused to,because as
long as people were willing to distract me from feeling
my pain I was taking that path. Like most people I
didn’t want to feel pain if I could avoid it. Once
faced with that I had the option of starting recovery or
feeling like that for the rest of my life(empty). The
decision was easy, the practicing it was damn hard....and
some days continues to be, but those days are the
exception now and I know beyond a doubt that the path
towards greater love is a journey that never ends and I
will never be perfect at it, nor would I want it to
end.....I want all the good stuff that I am discovering
on the path and to hear what others have found and share
our discoveries with each other. I no longer want to hurt
myself, and by hurting others I was hurting myself the
most. I have become very selfish that way. One step at a
time Big soft Huggggs
From: Mzet
Thanks for the comments Lynda. Not sure there is much
to add .I hear Bernd and you: I need to be present but in
silence so my wife can hear herself and search without
noise. I know what I have to do. It's just so damn hard.
Each time there is something else to give up, to let go,
and at times there SEEMS to be nothing left to sustain
me.
I feel there is a deeper sense of self that does
sustain me, however, just because I am. And that
something is a light so bright that it blinds me, so all
I see is night. That whole process hurts, but I know
there is a tender and loving hand to be held somewhere in
that darkness. I am still tentatively grasping it,
feeling it, studying it, as if learning how to trust it
rather than my own eyes.
Thank you. Take care. :...)
From: Diane
Thank you Mzet, for your tentative agreement on your
angel status. ;) Perhaps I should explain more on what I
mean by ancient. I feel that most of the folks who visit
this site, are -in fact- persistent Truthseekers. There
is a wisdom to even Allow themselves to even feel turmoil
and pain - without running and hiding from it. I feel
very strongly that the things I obsess over, the little
problems, the little issues, are really not about those
things I am obsessing about. It goes much deeper. I am
trying to understand the world, and the universe, though
my own limited experiences, relationships, tragedies and
triumphs. Does this make any sense? It takes an old soul
to recognize their personal Eden, and an even older soul
(shall we say ancient?) willing to do the complicated,
lonely work of getting there.
So Mzet, not as in crusty & dusty, but as in truth
and nothing but... kindest regards.
From: cindy
Date: 05 Jun 1997
Comments
Hi Metz, I had an affair on my husband and didn't tell
him even though I was asked. My reasons were loneliness,
lack of attention, just needed love. This is not an
excuse for having an affair but I can tell you this, when
confronted by my husband whether I was seeing someone
else, my answer was NO. It's not that I wanted to lie to
him or that I couldn't tell him the truth, It's just that
if I admitted to an affair, I would of lost him for good.
I needed that security of knowing he was there. Another
big factor was that my husband no matter how bad he
treated me(he was verbally and emotionally abusive for 10
out of 12 years of our marriage) he didn't deserve this.
And I still believe this. I never left my husband for
another man, but it made me realize that he was not for
me. My need for love and communication was stronger then
the security I had with him.(I also have 2 beautiful
children with him).
Bernd and Linda's situation from what I've been
reading is very unique, most men would not of stuck
around. Men cannot tolerate affair's just like women
can't. Personally myself even though I've walked that
road, I couldn't except it from my present boyfriend. One
thing it has taught me is that, when your feeling
unloved, insecure, communication isn't there, talked to
your spouse because the longer you wait, the harder it is
to talk to your partner, as time goes on you build up
anger, resentment for he or she because there not giving
you what you need. DON'T BE SILENT. Anyway back to Bernd
and Linda, Linda is a very lucky women, and I hope she
knows it. In my opinion Bernd is one of a kind. But that
doesn't necessarily mean your wife will make the same
decision Linda did. Her marriage was saved because of her
new found Love for Bernd. Which ultimately made their
marriage work.
A women whom has affair(numerous) is dealing with alot
of insecurities. She may not love her spouse anymore but
out of commitment, children, security of having someone
there, she stays. But continues to see other men. THIS IS
A VERY TRUE STATEMENT. PLEASE THINK ABOUT IT CAREFULLY.
How will your wife even really know if she truly loves
you if you don't let her go. If she's not strong enough
to leave you, you be strong enough for the both of you. A
person sometimes has to hit rock bottom in order to
realize what and who they truly want. A person may never
know unless their alone with NO ONE to fall back on. Her
insecurities will haunt her and will make her think your
the one she loves, but in time, believe me the truth will
come out. You have to be very strong. I think this is
your solution, not staying and waiting for her to make a
decision, because chances are things are to easy for her,
and if they are and she's having her cake and eating it
to, she will never learn to be truly honest about her
feelings. In the end if you continue, she will on a slim
note. Come back to you and within a short time have
another affair, or leave you for someone else. Its
ultimately your choice. But I would start thinking more
of myself then of her. I can sometimes run off with my
words a little. But this is just a very honest opinion of
a women who is 32 and who's been were Linda and your wife
has been and still is. Bye for now
From: cindy
In my letter to metz. My last sentence reads I'M STILL
THERE. After reading it, it sound like I'm still having
an affair, I'm not. I am no longer with my husband.
From: Mzet
I think I know what you are saying. I've been before
that fork in the road: should I divorce my wife or not,
if I move out, will it help her, etc. When I have made
choices in front of those forks, I have always been on
the brink on making the decisions based on the impact
that I felt the decision would have on my wife and our
relationship. And I think ultimately those were misguided
attempts to continue to control the situation, to punish
her, etc.
The difference NOW is that I am doing what I am doing
not for her anymore. I am making choices for MYSELF. It's
kind of hard to explain unless you've been there because
it is such a paradox.
I know that there are several possible outcomes, one
of which is: she'll come to her senses, love me again,
etc. Sort of the Bernd and Lynda outcome. I am not
banking on that outcome. But there are others: she
divorces me, she comes back and continues with this or
other affairs, etc. To be honest with you, all the
outcomes are now immaterial, inconsequential to me. I
can't believe I am saying that, but it's starting to
slowly be true. What's important is that now I have
something I did not have before, and that my sense of
self does not depend on her choices any more. It depends
on me.
And whatever the outcome, I know that we both will
confront that outcome to make sure our four kids have the
best possible life. She was a great mom and I do expect
her, as she has been through this whole process, to
continue to be one . That's about the only constant. So
it's not that I am staying for the kids either (which was
the original reason why I had not proceeded with
divorce).
I am not responsible for my wife's feelings or her
development. I can help here and there if and when she is
open for it. I am. She has to do whatever she has to do
for herself. My leaving will not necessarily push her one
way or the other. Only she herself can do that. My
staying,if it creates a lot of background noise, will
make things worse. I know that. So that's why I am as
silent as possible now. If she wants to see her lover,
she can. If she wants to leave or move with him, I am not
going to try to convince her otherwise. She is free.
I know it sounds like I am a masochist with all the
imagery of darkness and letting go of the self and going
through the pain, etc. throughout my posts. Why endure so
much suffering? I am not advocating that my path is the
universal 100% path for everyone. I am just sharing my
path so that others can make their own choices.
It's kind of hard to explain it unless you've been
there, but it was by going through the pain that I found
joy. It was in coming through nothing by way of going
through nothing that I became nothing in order to gain
everything.
From: ke11e
Hi MZET! I've been checking in on this site
occasionally, and I've been disappointed that I hadn't
heard from you in a while! Your thoughts always make me
smile (or at least, THINK!!!:)), but I also wondered how
things have been going with you and your wife. It sounds
like the progress is still yours only--but you are so far
ahead of me in your journey that I still can only wave
admiringly....Bernd is right: you are SO brilliant in
learning and understanding the recovery process, but
because you are also wonderfully human, you feel the pain
as much as the rest of us. You guys make great partners
in leading us out of our confusions!!
Just wanted to say how good it is to hear from you--
that I still pray your lucky wife will realize she is
still that, and that you feel the peace and understanding
that you have been struggling for. Whadda guy UR!!
From: mzet
Can't do it all the time like Bernd does. Don't know
where he gets the energy to visit, listen and respond
regularly. Yeah, I was out for a while, backpacking for a
week or so in the Blue Ridge Mountains. It was good.
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