 It's my turn - I need help -
wolfie
Hi all, Need some help with this. My whole life I have
struggled with an inner sense of GUILT, feelings of being
BAD, unworthy, unlovable, etc. etc. At a young age, I
developed Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and did rituals,
obsessions, all kinds of things - but in actually it
nearly drove me insane and it took me farther away from
whatever was really going on. In fact, I was nearly
insane according to one shrink and she recommended that I
be sent somewhere. To make a very long story short, I
started seeing a shrink at an early age - was approx. 13
years old. In my twenties I drank to cope. I got sober in
1992 and my first real fear was that I would go insane
again. What scared me the most about the 12-steps was the
amends thing because that was what my obsessions were all
about - continually apologizing, feeling the need to say
something perfect, going back and confessing to this, to
that, to this. In other words, I feared that the making
amends would trigger my obsessions.
Because a lot of my obsessions had to do with going
back and saying something to someone, feeling the need to
say things perfectly, confessing for this thought or for
this......Anyway, (I'm trying to keep this short) I was
led to the big book step study process and I did the
process intensely. At the same time I was guided in other
directions and I have moved on. This is my dilemma -
Since being in my relationship (my partner has been
living with me for the last two years) my obsessive stuff
ALL came back - I have felt that I am a kid again -
feeling the need to obsess, to say that,......it is very
hard to explain - all I can say is that the obsessions at
times can rule my life and it is all I can think about -
the obsession. I know that by giving in to these
obsessions I am allowing fear to rule me - in other
words, if I just willed myself to not do the obsession,
whatever it is I am really feeling may have a chance to
surface. (out of all the things I have read, this is what
is recommended - do not give in to the obsession, fear)
So this is what I have been battling.
My partner has allowed all of my unresolved issues and
pain to resurface and let me tell you - it has been NO
picnic. The dilemma is this: many things I have obsessed
about to him have hurt him - and part of me feels that
these obsessions are in essence - self sabotage - a way
to keep barriers between us. It is when things are going
wonderfully - when I feel love and wonder and joy and
delight that I feel the need to obsess - that is why I
have figured I was self sabotaging. Most of my obsessions
are always about something that I know he is going to
feel hurt. But on the flip side, I have just tried to be
honest but my honesty has hurt him. He mirrors me in so
many ways and I am feeling overwhelmed. I guess my
question is this: when is it better to say - certain
things are better left unsaid. When am I supposed to let
certain things go - when do I instead make amends, when
do I know that I am beating up on myself and I really
should let it go, when do I notice it is an obsession and
let it go. The thing is - all of my thoughts these days
seem to be obsessions. I feel as if I am stumbling around
in the dark. And I am having a hard time hearing my
"inner voice" these days.
To try to explain the psychological part of all of
this is - as a kid, I used to do these obsessions with my
mother. It became embarrassing so I turned to my sister -
she helped me to chill out. They were the closest people
to me. I have always feared intimacy, closeness, all of
that stuff and now with my present partner, I am no
longer running. I am trying to face my fears and believe
me - every single possible one has come up. Honestly, I
feel that I am in the dark night of the soul. It is
overwhelming. This is the most intimate I have ever been
with another and it is SCARY shit for me.
Honest to God, I just want peace!!!! Any help is
greatly appreciated!
 From: Dean
Kim......I am with you on this journey, ok? You have
been there for me and now I can reciprocate. I can
understand what you are going thru, but let's look at the
picture. From my point of view, I have always valued
HONESTY, and you are doing the right thing by being
upfront with your SO. Yes, it may hurt, but as I
understand you, you guys are really close. This will give
a even greater bond for you two knowing that you are
letting your obsession be known. I know what you are
going thru as my former SO has obsessions like these, but
the difference is that she won't let them be known. I
feel it is with respect that we open up to our SO and get
these out in the open...to discuss, ponder, or
whatever.....so the relationship bonds even more. Maybe I
am rambling here, but I do feel that honesty is the only
way to go. Your SO loves you more than anything, and he
will stand there beside you thru these trying times. I
get the feeling that you have a really good head on you,
so don't worry......you are well!!!
From: Bernd
Kim, I know it’s hard as hell sometimes...and
likely feels that it’s MOST times right now. The
best guesses that I’m going to give you are going to
be a major jump of faith for me, and some (or many of
them) might sound absolutely crazy, and that’s ok.
Just a gentle reminder to take what you like, and leave
the rest.
The line that jumped out most in your posting was
“Honest to God, I just want peace!!!! “. My
sense is that God is answering exactly that prayer, in
bringing a very important struggle that’s affected
most of your life to the surface, so that you can TRULY
begin healing it. If I pray to God for an apple, He/she
won’t let me be deluded when I pick up a plastic
one; instead, I’m a lot more likely to be led down a
confusing and difficult path, that eventually makes
complete sense - because at the end of it lies an
orchard.
I believe that obsessive/compulsiveness and depression
have similar roots, and I am intimately familiar with
depression, because I’ve struggled with it almost
all my life. Both are called mental disorders, or
diseases, in the medical profession. I beg to differ.
They are, and they aren’t. I believe both are
allergies to dysfunction. We get “sick” in the
same way that someone with chemical allergies gets sick
living over a buried toxic waste dump. While everyone
else is walking around seemingly “healthy”, we
are the canaries in the coal mine. It’s our
suffering that’s among the most ACCURATE bellwether
of the crap that our fellow human beings keep dumping on
one another, and us. It’s also a helluva feedback
system that alerts us to the unloving ways we treat
ourselves, as we follow the dysfunctional examples of
those around us, and those we learned from thru
childhood.
Anti-depressants such as Prozac help reduce the amount
of suffering we go thru (they work well for many people
suffering from depression, as well as OCD). I believe,
however, that the REAL “cures” come thru the
much more confusing and tortuous route of spiritual
recovery. Genuine self-love - which expands to genuine
love for others as well - offers the only permanent
“peace” that I know of. I believe our diseases
offer us a unique doorway to healing, that makes them a
true gift once we take the leaps of faith we need.
I’ve been on Prozac, and am going back on it. I
also struggle with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Prozac is a
treatment for both depression and CFS. While my ultimate
aim is to go down the path of recovery toward a permanent
“cure” (genuine love), I need breathers along
the way, or rest stops. I need one now; I find I’m
able to work (earn income) effectively only a few days a
week, sometimes even less. My “diseases” have
continued to make family life a constant economic
struggle. I need a break right now, and so does the rest
of the family. I owe over $60,000 in debts that I
accumulated over the past 25 years, and collection
agencies are a regular part of my life.
I’ve made a lot of inroads into understanding my
depression over the past few months. I’ve been hard
at the process for close to five years. So I guess
it’s about time, eh?:) It’s my struggle that
kept fueling my depression, ironically. Acceptance is a
big part of love, and as long as I was trying to rid
myself of depression, and feeling guilt and shame over
it, I was feeding myself with toxic thoughts and
feelings. I kept poisoning myself, and because my
depression is such a good feedback system, I got more
depressed as I struggled in this way.
Acceptance and embracing my depression have worked
wonders. It IS a gift, and the more I WANT IT, the more
it stops being a handicap. What a paradox, eh? My
suffering has gone WAY down since I discovered the power
of acceptance, and I am finally beginning to experience
real peace with my depression. I’m still a long way
off from where I want to be, but I’m come a long way
baby!
I’ve also experienced the miracle of “love
coming back many times over what we send out”.
Lynda’s support and acceptance of my depression has
others baffled (“why don’t you leave the
bum?”), and her acceptance and love feels a thousand
times greater than any I ever gave to her in her
struggles with her own “problems”.
It IS a huge leap of faith to look at depression and
OCD as gifts, rather than curses. But that’s been
the only path to peace that I’ve been able to find.
My work on this path has contributed immeasurably to my
whole recovery, and it’s a very solid feeling inside
when I say that, without my depression, I would have
never stuck it out with Lynda. It FORCED me to search for
the most loving paths, because as soon as I tried to go
down the quick detours, I literally got sick as a dog;
I’d sink into a black hole of depression, and be
unable to do anything but the most basic things until I
found the most loving path. Yes, I cursed at God many
times, but I am eternally grateful now. I wouldn’t
trade what I have for the world.
The shame and guilt you feel is learned shame and
guilt. It isn’t a natural part of you. Others have
tricked us into believing we should feel those - and
continue to. As long as we keep following and believing
those lies, our allergies will flare up even more.
I noted with interest your shrinks’ diagnosis and
treatment of you. The prevailing attitude in the medical
profession is still one of treating these as “mental
illnesses”. I have had 2 specialists who firmly
believed they had made big dents in treating my
depression, while my inner voice was screaming out that
the struggle was still very much there, just suppressed a
helluva lot better. Undiagnosed codependency is rampant
in the therapy profession; as a result, we are often
“treated” by “professionals” who
enable our attempts to control our suffering by
willpower. I suspect that much of your treatment
consisted of your shrinks struggling WITH you, and
reinforcing that path of struggle. When it didn’t
work - and it makes sense to me that it COULDN’T
work - you were labeled “almost insane”. I
really wonder who was “crazy” in such
situations.
Kim, do you have a therapist or mentor that is on
their own recovery journey, and has been struggling with
something similar? (Is therapy a “money”
problem?). With so many so-called “normal”
people around you, it’s very, very difficult to go
against the grain, and take the leaps of faith necessary
to find the true path to peace you’re looking for.
Without my therapist being as spiritual and loving as he
is, I really don’t think I would have made it
anywhere near this far in my search. I think I’d
still be in a major struggle with my depression, with
disastrous results.
I want to shed a bit more light on where this gift has
been trying to take me all along. I’m beginning to
get more insights. Workwise, whenever I tried to do
income-earning work that wasn’t healthy for me, my
depression would kick in and I’d get sicker. For
much of my life, I was able to use workaholism to shut
off the feelings of sickness, and the pain I felt. But
like any addict, I eventually crashed - several times.
Three failed businesses, and an almost failed marriage.
The struggles certainly fueled my affairs.
During the last few years, I kept getting little
inklings that my depression would actually become the
SOURCE of my income, instead of the
“impediment”. Huh???? Here’s what’s
going on inside. It is finally dawning on me that this
comment forum, and my recovery - fueled in large part by
my depression - has given me a lot of experience writing,
and sharing my recovery and other people’s recovery
and insights, with others. I am getting a stronger and
stringer “push” inside to start beating the
bushes in print publications (newspapers, etc.) to do a
recovery-based column. I think it’s time someone
did. Dear Abby just doesn’t cut it for me anymore.
If that is truly where I’m being lead, then the
column and writing will become my source of income. I
will earn a living off of depression. Now if that
ain’t ironic, I don’t know what is!:)
I don’t know if that’s truly where I’m
being led yet. But I have a hunch it’s somewhere in
that direction. I also hope that, someday, I’ll be
able to earn enough to start a series of books on true
life experiences in overcoming great odds. If I get that
lucky, I want you as an author. You have a rich history
of struggle, that is a true inspiration to anyone that
you share it with. As tough as our journeys are, there
are people in absolute hell that your caring hand would
make such a huge difference to. If you are able to find
your way thru your struggles to a greater peace, your
footsteps can be the trail that will finally help them
find their way toward the freedom they’ve been so
desperately looking for. When you see hope on their faces
again for the first time in a long while in their lives,
my gut feeling is that you will go to sleep every night
thanking God profusely for the tremendous gift you have.
And that gratitude will be accompanied by a peace unlike
any you’ve ever known.
Anyway, those are my best guesses for now. I hope
something in here helps you in some way. You deserve the
love and peace that you’re looking for.
From: wolfie (Kim)
Dear Bernd and Dean, First off Dean I want to thank
you for your heart-felt love that shined thru my screen -
your words meant a lot to me. Thank you!!! Bernd - thank
you also for sharing as much as you have with me.
Everything you shared rang such truth in me - in knowing
all that you said, that is what has kept me going -
knowing that some day, I would be able to help others
struggling with the same kind of issues.
I realize that everything that is coming up, is coming
up because it now needs to be shed. I agree Bernd in that
OCD and depression go hand in hand. I have also suffered
from depression most of my life. In fact, I believe that
came first. I was in 6th grade and I was watching a movie
about a girl stranded on an island - oh my God, after
that movie I got so depressed but I didn't understand
what I was feeling. I didn't understand it because it was
knew for me. I went home and told my mother that I felt
weird etc., and she said "that is depression, snap
out of it" Believe you me, I do not blame my mother
for anything - she did what she knew how to do - my mom
also has her lost little girl inside and her childhood is
so sad it breaks my heart. Anyway, it appears that after
that, I started going into my head instead of dealing
with my feelings. I did rituals with knives, scary stuff
and I just couldn't take it. I felt that God had answered
me as a little girl - I was listening to the radio and
the announcer said "and he went to a
psychiatrist" I felt that it was a message from God
- I wanted help. My mom and dad could see my inner
struggle and asked if I wanted help - I said I did. That
is when I was taken to a woman and she thought I was so
out there that she recommend that I be taken to a mental
hospital. I have great pain and sadness about all of that
- waking up one day and having my dad say I am going on a
trip - it will be fun - look at is like an adventure -
and to please my parents I tried to look at it like that.
Of course when we got there, my parents got horrified - I
thank God for my parents in regards to all of this - they
really listened to their inner voice - Thank God! They
demanded to see the head person in charge - didn't think
I needed to be there. I talked to the head person in
charge and he agreed - but he said I needed psychiatric
help. I thank God for my parents' choice!!!!
That place was like a prison with scary (to me, I was
only a child) people walking around. Well I didn't stay -
I was taken home. That is when I started bouncing around
to shrinks and I found one that I remained with until I
was adult. Because I had to see him every Monday all thru
high school, I definitely felt very different and weird.
ANYWAY, mostly what I did with my shrink was talk. I am
grateful for him being there at that time in my life. I
didn't have much feedback though - it wasn't until this
past year that I looked at OCD and saw the exact
similarities. Bernd, you were talking about the Prozac
thing and your summary of it all was perfect!!! My shrink
never gave me any medication and to be honest, I was
grateful. Even when I got sober, a woman recommended that
I take medication because it transformed her life. But my
inner voice always shied away from it. It was like I knew
on some level that I needed to find a spiritual cure - I
didn't want a bandaid - I wanted to get to the root. But
I like your description Bernd - sometimes we need a
little help. It is funny but my partner has often said
the same thing. Well I am presently taking the herb (I am
very into holistic health) St. John's Wort and it is
helping. Bernd - I really liked your description about
all of that.
You are SO SO right about the self acceptance and self
love thing. Since being on this spiritual path I have
really believed that the answer to everything was self
love. If we loved all of ourselves, we would love the
whole world and everyone in it also. ANYWAY, so that is
what I have been trying to do. You know Bernd, when I met
my partner, the amount of love he gave to me was so
overwhelming that I cracked! I didn't know how to handle
it - it started from wanting to run (couldn't handle this
mushy stuff), to massive obsessions! See what I have been
trying to do (what I have always done) is try to get
acceptance and validation from Him when I need to get it
from me! I mean he is a beautiful soul with so much
loving in him and quite gentle and wonderful but he is
only human also - with his own issues and fears! I
thought I liked myself just fine until I got into this
relationship - I realized how much I hated myself! But
that is the beauty of relationships, yes? He has mirrored
my self disgust - everything! See, he has a hard time
with my past. (my promiscuity) He was married for fifteen
years faithfully and lived a pretty mellow life - He has
treated women with respect - has no addictions etc. My
life was lived in the opposite!! Although, I do see the
beauty in it Bernd. I mean, I know that all of his rage
and pain that has come up to the surface hasn't been
caused by me - being with me has allowed it to come up.
But knowing that still doesn't make it easy.
You are right - I need someone to talk to. Presently,
I do not have a therapist or anything. Since being on
this intense path, I have given up on psychiatrists and
talking. I have, instead, done transformational breath
therapy - In other words, I have really gone down deep
and FELT FELT FELT the pain - when I did that, A lot of
anger and pain from my childhood came up to the surface.
I have done hypnotherapy, reiki, shamanism - You name it!
(smile) But for a while now, I haven't gone to see
anyone. I have put it out to the universe that I need
someone to talk with but nothing has come thru. I was
going to do psychotherapy with this woman - she really
believes in the spiritual part of healing (as I do) but
it didn't work out. What happened was that I was going to
interview her on a cable show my church does - I am the
hostess - it is called "The spiritual
experience" Anyway, I was really sick that day and I
really didn't feel up to doing the interview.
Unfortunately I called her and I ended up People Pleasing
- I said I would be ok and I'd do the show. Long story
short, but I people pleased instead of doing what I
really needed for myself. To make a long story short, I
called her and ended up canceling - she was so mad
because I didn't let her know that morning - she is right
- she said if I couldn't do it to let her know now
because she was going to Quincy (the town the show was
in) to have dinner at her fathers. If I couldn't do it I
should let her know now so that she doesn't go to Quincy.
I people pleased and said I would do it. I ended up
calling her at her Fathers and canceling. I just felt
toooo sick! I made my amends - apologized - I had people
pleased instead of doing what I needed to do for me. But
she was very mad. Should have let her know, etc. I see MY
part in it but I am also very aware that she has her own
issues as well - her anger is her responsibility. There
was nothing else I could say. Learned a big lesson I
did!!!! Anyway, I ended up not doing psychotherapy with
her.
I actually have gotten to the point in which I feel
that I am supposed to do it on my own (with God) - in
other words, when I find what works for me, I will lead
others. But God Bernd, you are very right - it sure would
be WONDERFUL to find someone who has been thru what I
have and has made it thru. I just have never found anyone
else with OCD - I have felt completely alone - that no
one could possibly understand the insanity and craziness
that can go on in my head. I haven't found another who
has dealt with this also and has made it thru to
peace????
Bernd, your post really made me cry - it was full of
love and complete compassion. Thank you for your words
and good cheer! Thank you also for your WONDERFULLY
SPIRIT guided ideas!! Those ideas you have about your
column and your books and helping people is Fresh from
Spirit!!! Go for it - I, too, Bernd CAN see it happening.
I already witness it on this web page. Do you know how
many people out there struggle with depression and all
you have been thru - if you can shed some light and just
share your recovery, you help millions! Yes - USE your
depression in the most beautiful way that you can!!!! I
would be HONORED to be a part of your book!!! I, too,
often think about the book that I will write some day!!!!
Because I will :-) !! In regards to wanting to do what
you love and make money doing it - I would recommend The
40-day Prosperity Plan by John Randolph Price. I think
you'd love it!!!!!
God Bless and Thank you from my heart to yours!!!!!
p.s Bernd, You are right in that when I have just
Accepted my Obsessiveness, when I stop fighting it, it
seems to relax - then I am just plain depressed and
miserable and so unhappy. At least, then, I am feeling
though. You are right - the whole thing gets quite tiring
and I feel overwhelmed with pain and sadness.
From: Susan
wolfie: There is a GREAT site for folks suffering from
OCD and depression. Mental Health Net.... the OCD section
is at: http://ocd.cmhc.com/.
You can get on-line support, e-mail groups, IRC(chat) and
so on from this page. Although I support yours and
Bernd's desire to "lick this on your own", we
all know that at times it is VERY helpful to discuss
things with people who are going thru the same thing(s).
I also suffer from depression (Major D II), and have
taken anti-depressants for years, currently Zoloft. And
as much as I admire your courage, I have a more
physiological take on this. I feel it is a chemical
imbalance, much as diabetes is. I would not feel
comfortable recommending that a diabetic stop taking
their insulin and try to heal themselves with love. It
might work, but I personally choose not to take that
chance. My depression can be just as life threatening as
diabetes and a much faster acting one!!!
Of course, each of us has our own thoughts and beliefs
on this subject. I just thought it would be helpful for
you to be able to share with some other folks who
understand OCD from the "inside" perspective.
From: Bernd
Great resource Susan. I may have implied that my path
involved "licking it on my own", but reaching
out for support is very much part of the
"cure". I can't do it on my own. Can't. I've
also tussled with the diabetes comparison. The difference
I find is that diabetics don't go into insulin shock over
feelings of guilt and shame over their disease. Healthy
eating and lifestyle for a diabetic is the closest thing
I can compare to the "recovery" path for
dealing with depression.
One last note. Depression, like addiction, seems
unique from other disease processes such as diabetes
because the spiritual aspect of recovery has proven to be
an essential part of dealing with the disease. We may, at
some time in the future, find that the theories found in
holistic medicine may have a lot more truth than we
realize. Someday, we MAY find that we ARE able to tap
into unknown physical healing powers of the body to
"cure" such diseases as diabetes. Who knows
what the future will teach us after all?
From: Bernd
Hi again Kim, I noticed something else you might have
in common with me. During the earlier years of my
therapy, my counselor noticed that I’d often give my
BEST clues of what I was really struggling with near or
at the END of my sessions. It’s like once I finished
my “thinking” work, my inner voice finally got
a chance to sneak a few words in. In your first post, it
was you last line that jumped out the most. And you did
it again in your last posting!:)..(the “P.S.”)
Your OCD makes perfect sense Kim. It’s the
“safety ring” you use to keep yourself from
sliding into the black hole of depression. The OCD gives
you a sense of control, and keeps your mind occupied in
an ongoing struggle. Without that distraction, you are
only too well aware that the black curtain of depression
will slide over you. Something inside you recognizes the
REAL danger of sliding to or over the brink of suicide
when that happens. The OCD, in one sense, is the barbed
wire fence that keeps you from going totally over the
edge of the cliff. Why barbed wire? As a child, it was
the ONLY material you had to work with. You were
resourceful, and even tho you knew it would hurt like
hell - and keep hurting like hell - you instinctively
knew it was the only thing you had left to work with.
My guess is that the thing you are struggling with
most - and terrified of most - is your depression.
I’d also guess that any work you do on that issue is
going to have a positive effect on your OCD.
St. John’s Wort DOES have some anti-depressant
qualities, but I suspect its use in your case is like
trying to fix a broken leg with a bandaid. I’m on 20
mg daily of Prozac (just picked up my prescription), and
if that doesn’t help enough, I have the
doctor’s okay to kick the dose up to 40 mg. I view
it as the “cast” I need to help my “broken
leg” heal the way it needs to. I may stay on Prozac
the rest of my life, or may not. I don’t know. My
inner voice will guide me where I need to go. It’s
my MIND that has rebelled in the past at taking meds,
cause somehow that means I’m “defective”.
Do some checking inside, and try to separate what fears
your brain is projecting, and what whispers are really
coming up from inside. It’s only in admitting our
weakness that we become strong, and it’s our belief
that we’re strong that makes us weak.
If depression IS an allergy to dysfunction, then we
are sick because of the shit that has been piled on top
of us in the past, and keeps being piled on us. If we get
buried deep enough, we need a “breathing tube”.
A little ole straw still leaves us gasping for air. You
have a had a major truckload of it dumped on you during
your childhood and later. That’s my thoughts for
now. Keep hanging in there.
From: wolfie
HI there, I agree in what Bernd is saying. You see, if
I take a pill to make me feel better - I know me - I
could become dependent on the pill. What I have known to
work is changing the errors in our thinking - in other
words, pills alone may make us feel better but what
happens when we stop taking them? We go right back to
feeling awful. I just really don't want to be dependent
on anything except my own inner resources - God.
Although, I do understand what you are saying Susan. But
the thing is, even diabetes can manifest by an error in
thinking. I guess for me I enjoy herbs because I feel
they go to work on the root of the issue. You see, I feel
we can all be spiritually healed! BUT (and a BIG BUT) I
realize that even medication is God Given and sometimes
we need that help!!!! I just think that each individual
needs to do what they gotta do. For me personally, I just
haven't felt guided to take any medication (at this
moment anyway :-) ) I just want to get to the root -
treat the cause, not the symptom. But that's me!!!!
From: wolfie
Dearest Bernd, YES, I know you are right about my
depression and all of that - I know it!!!! When my
obsessions have gotten SO bad, I have affirmed over and
over and over in my mind, it is safe to feel, it is safe
to feel, and SOMETIMES my obsession would chill out and I
would end up, instead, having a Wonderful cry!!!!! So I
do know that what you say is true - my OCD has helped me
cope with life. It's weird Bernd, you know, but I have
often told people that I HATE my OCD and I would rather
just feel - in other words, I don't want the tool anymore
- and when I feel it really isn't that bad......but then
the obsessions end up coming back anyway.
But yes, you're right. I have had some pretty awful
depressions in my life. My god, just thinking about it
now....going back..... remembering....winter as a
child...God the despair...the black hole! At times I
really was so afraid that I would stick a knife in my
heart. And you know, my most serious serious depressions
have something to do with abandonment. I mean I figured
that out a long time ago! That girl on the island - the
abandoned one - well that was how I felt. I have tried to
work thru my abandonment issues with transformational
breath therapy and A LOT of stuff came up - TONS! And you
know what is funny, I base a lot of things I like and
don't like with feelings of association. In other words,
I like summer because mostly as a child I have good
memories, I hate winter because as a child it was awful,
I hate playing cards because I have yuck feelings
associated with that, etc. I want to do anything which
makes me feel good - which I associate happy feelings
with it. Make sense?
hmmmmmm, I will think about what you said regarding
the medication. I don't know. I WILL seriously think
about what you said Bernd! Thank you so very
much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: Susan
Bernd, 1.) As a layman, you probably from a legal
standpoint, should not dispense what could be considered
"medical" advice.
2.) I suggest that you have not been around many
diabetics !!! They have MANY of the same symptoms as
chronic manic-depression - especially when their glucose
levels go out of whack. Diabetes USED to be considered a
source of guilt and shame, UNTIL it was understood.
3.) I do not have the attitude that depression or any
other mental "illness" is a source of shame or
of guilt. It is a medical, physiological, measurable,
treatable disease. I take antibiotics when I have an
infection, I use an estrogen patch to keep from getting
osteoporosis, AND I take Zoloft to correct the seratonin
levels in my brain chemistry.
4.) If anyone feels shame, they need to do some inner
work to discover the source of that feeling. My
suggestion would be to get a new attitude about an all
too common problem - letting other people tell you how to
feel about yourself!
5.) Healthy eating and a healthy lifestyle will
benefit everyone and ANY disease known to mankind !! Self
discovery and self acceptance will benefit everyone AND
any illness you can name!!
Just my thoughts.......
From: wolfie
Thank you Susan!!!!! I do appreciate your wisdom and
thoughts!!! I do agree with your comparison to
diabetes!!! Have you ever read "The New Mood
Therapy" by I think his name is David Burns. I feel
that depression stems from an error in thinking - shame,
guilt, negative thoughts about oneself, forgetting the
Truth of who we really are, etc. I think MANY of the
medical professions are treating the symptom not the
root, the cause.
From: Susan
wolfie, Yes, I have read it.... and thoroughly
disagree with it..... I DO support others' decisions to
deal with their own issues, I just don't think that every
thing in the world is caused by having negative thoughts
about myself!! Next time I get strep throat, I will think
positively about myself - as I lay dying from scarlet
fever and heart damage. Obviously, taking an antibiotic
is only treating the symptom, not the cause (apparently,
by having guilt and shame, I caused a deadly bacteria to
enter my body - hey, really, LOVE that bacteria. Maybe
they will grow strawberries on my gravesite !!!!!)
SORRY, but there ARE things that have physical CAUSES
and I very firmly believe that depression is one of them.
BUT, each to their own beliefs........
From: della
Kim, I wish I was as knowledgeable as some people here
and could give you all kinds of help like you have done
for me.:) Always remember the friends you have here.
There are a lot of people who care about you.
From: Claudia
Hi Dear One, I am on limited time right now because I
have to get ready for work but have read your cry for
help and just wanted to touch you for a moment. I
connected immediately to your pain and fear and want and
courage. They are all there. You are a winner Kim. Your
love shown for others is a huge part of who you are and
what you have to offer yourself. The problem for me I
guess is that I wanted these things so desperately that I
spent many years trying to "will myself not to do my
compulsions" but only seemed to give them more
power.
None of this is a matter of our will. If there is
indeed any will involved here I guess it might be our
will to survive the craziness. It is this that gives the
courage to take the next step. I sense that you are on a
precipice of healing. For me when I got there the fear
became an uncertainty in my own ability to be whole.
I am finding today that I am becoming
"wholer" I haven't arrived yet but am so much
further ahead than when recovery began. I also as you
know am in a soulmate relationship. It is scary stuff to
work on healing and allow love in the form of male/female
connectedness. I believe it can be done but only as I am
honest with myself and honest with Tom. Another crucial
precipice because it means allowing myself to be
vulnerable. Gosh, it is a paradox that the only way to it
is through it!!!
We are not alone Dear One. We have one another, we
have the beautiful friends that are on these pages. We
have the strength that comes only from the mysterious
power of our own HP!!!!! You are loved Kim. Please email
me again. I am blessed by our connection.
From: kim (wolfie)
Dear Claudia, I just about balled my eyes out reading
your post! Thank you very much for your heart-felt
love-filled words!!! It meant a lot to me!!!!!
I think I have confused everyone when I talked about
using my will. Maybe I used the wrong word. You see, I
just finished reading "Guilt is the Teacher, Love is
the Lesson" by Joan Borysenko - and as a child she
too was OCD. Well she got a spirit-guided message about
going cold turkey. In other words, she just didn't give
in to the obsession - she willed herself not to - and she
was cured. Anyway, it was a wonderful book!!! I guess
what I was trying to say and what has worked for me is
that when an obsession comes up, I immediately see what
it is, and very quickly I turn my focus to other
things....and the obsession goes away because I didn't
give it power - I saw it but chose my focus elsewhere
instead. At times I have felt EXTREMELY victorious and
other times I have given in to the obsession. It is also
a Zen way of looking at it - I see it but I go right back
to the present - and the obsession goes away because I
didn't give it power. I have been successful - I haven't
- it is like a constant battle! :-) But I will think
about what everyone has shared with me. Thank you
ALL!!!!!!!!!!!
From: kim
Hi Bernd, what do you think about this. As you know,
by being in this relationship, everything has come up.
Also, this is the FIRST relationship in which I didn't
feel a type of abandonment. In fact, I feel his love and
his commitment - more than I have ever felt before -
ever. All I have ever felt is his love and enduring
commitment. So the way I act in this relationship is
different than I have ever acted before because I have
never HAD this before. I have guilt about it too - I feel
he has gotten all the shit. And YET, as I've told him, he
is getting the real me. And that hasn't been easy for him
or for me. I mean, I always had that fear that if you
really knew who I was, you wouldn't love me. For once in
my life, I am really getting to know ME (just starting to
see who I am) and I haven't really liked what I see at
all! Every issue has come up. Also, sometimes I wish I
wasn't as aware as I am. I really feel very aware and I
SEE what goes on underneath the surface - I really do. My
problem is that I beat myself up over it.
Anyway, It appears that I am obsessing now and doing
all that I am doing as a way to keep control. I am so
afraid to surrender - for what - fear of abandonment?
It's true - one night recently I went to bed and my
partner was very actively engaged on the computer all
night and doing his thing. Usually I don't feel this way
in this relationship, but that night I felt very alone
and......I had that abandonment feeling creep up. I
realized that I hated that feeling and it seems that I
enjoyed, instead, being in control. In that moment, I saw
why I was obsessing instead of feeling so out of control
and vulnerable.........
Do I really feel abandonment that intensely? I don't
know. There are another million of things that are going
on within ME because of this relationship and I have felt
overwhelmed.....with change, with emotions, with
feelings, with getting to know me, with....man,
everything. And I guess my OCD is a way to keep control -
which I have always known. Just some ramblings. Again,
thank you. I will consider what you said about the
medication issue.
From: Bernd
Hi again Kim, Just a few notes. I had a lightbulb go
off inside me this morning. I’m not taking Prozac as
a new drug; I’m taking it to replace one I’ve
been taking for years, that has major side effects:
cigarettes. Smoking has been my main self-medicating drug
for depression - along with caffeine. It finally dawned
on me that I can’t cope without medication, so the
choice has become crystal clear: smoking or Prozac.
It also snaps something else into crystal clarity. My
depression has actually seemed to have gotten WORSE the
longer I’ve been in recovery. This confused the hell
out of me. I was getting spiritually healthier, and my
“allergy” should have gone down, not up.
Logically.:)
But it wasn’t logical. What was actually
happening is the amount of self-medication I was giving
myself was going down. Besides smoking, sex, work, and
computer games were part of my “medicine
cabinet”. As I used those obsessions and addictions
less and less, the “dosages” I was giving
myself decreased. It has been like coming off of
pain-killers and discovering my head has a big bruise on
it that has never healed.
Susan’s mentioning of other diseases and
treatments turned on another lightbulb. When the
medication I take isn’t appropriate for the disease
I have, or high enough dosage, I’m gonna keep
feeling crappy, and the disease is gonna keep robbing me,
and maybe even kill me. It’s a pretty basic feedback
system, whether it’s depression, diabetes,
osteoporosis, or anything else. Your OCD may be your
primary way of self-medicating as well. Dunno, but
it’s something you may find worthwhile exploring.
Kim, when’s the last time you checked with a
doctor about your depression and OCD? Is that thought
scary, based on the experiences you’ve had with the
medical profession in the past? Susan’s last posting
made a lot of sense to me - if there is an untreated
chemical imbalance at work, then it will be as hard to
cope with it “emotionally” as it would be to
treat diabetes by going to AA meetings. It would be
soooooo nice to see you get some REAL relief from
biological struggles that may be robbing you of energies
that you want to put into your emotional and spiritual
recovery.
One last note: the mirror thing in a relationship
doesn’t just work one way. Whatever struggles you
are going thru are very likely counterparts to your
partner’s own internal struggles from his past.
It’s my guess that he isn’t any more healed, or
less healed than you. It may not be as visible, but
matches like yours don’t happen by accident.
You’ve been used to blaming yourself for a lot of
problems that go on around you. And I suspect that you
know this on a “logical” level, but down deep
you are treating yourself as the “biggest
problem” in the relationship. The more aware you can
be when you do this, the less self-punishment you’ll
find inflicting on yourself. That will help you love
yourself AND him in more of the ways you want. My guess.
I wish I had the answers that you were looking for. You
deserve the peace you want.
From: kim
Hi Bernd and Thanks, Well I went to lunch with my
mother today. She offered to pay for any therapy I would
like. She knows of someone close by who is really good so
I'll give it a whirl. I haven't been to a therapist in
god knows how long and yes, there is some fear there. I
guess my fear is that Therapist = Depression. Just going
to one, depresses me. But I am open and will go to this
one! I DO need someone to talk with.
Bernd, you are very right that I blame myself for
much. And yet, It is also true, I am very aware that he
has his stuff also - that it works both ways - I truly do
know this. And I get annoyed at him sometimes because it
seems that he doesn't seem to be looking at himself as
much as I look at myself. But then he gets annoyed at me
because he says he does in his own way and he doesn't
feel the need to talk about it. So I end up coming across
very .....I don't know. What works is when I just stop
looking at him completely and just focus on me. But what
you said was really nice Bernd and it brought tears to my
eyes. Thank you.
I am still pondering this medication issue. Thank you
for sharing what you did. I am just so afraid I'm going
to turn into one of the millions of people out there
depressed and taking medication. The thought alone
depresses me. I don't know. I will talk about it when I
go to therapy. Thank you for sharing your insights
regarding the whole issue. We'll see, but I'll keep you
informed.
From: Susan
All, Now, I am calmer..... so....... I have been
fighting the misinformation and ignorance surrounding
mental disabilities all my life.
My uncle, whom I grew up living with (my Mom's
brother) was severely retarded... 4 years old forever. He
was one of the most loving, giving, gentle people on
earth. He had a Gift, his music - he could hear ANY music
on a radio, TV, or recording and IMMEDIATELY sit down at
his piano and play it note for note, AND transpose it
into any key you asked him to. MANY people were
frightened of him - just because he was
"different", "retarded" - mentally
ill. More often than not they were frightened, and all I
ever heard was "he should be put in a home for THOSE
people" and "they shouldn't raise that little
girl around one of THOSE people" ETC., ETC., ETC....
That "defective" person gave me some of the
most unconditional love and acceptance I ever received.
He was a lesson in the childlike wonder of the world and
all it's many people. He loved everyone equally and NEVER
lost his sense of joy at "just living". MY
family treated their "shameful defective" as if
he were a Gift from our Higher Power - which is exactly
what he was.... as they say " the Lord moves in
mysterious ways".
As I said - ignorance and misinformation.......our
whole family was EXPECTED by society to feel shame and
guilt for having one of THOSE people in our family. In
the earlier part of this century someone like him, or
even me for that matter, would have been locked away and
forgotten. All the shame of having someone "mentally
defective", that somehow "living wrong" or
"sinning" or "weak character" made
this horrible thing happen. This horrible thing must be
kept secret (some families even killed "mental
defectives") to save them from the shame and
criticism from "society".
Why is it that mental illness is so
"shameful" and is caused by
"weakness" or "lack of character"? My
Uncle had scarlet fever as a toddler, and due to the lack
of antibiotics, had an extremely high fever for days -
which in turn caused encephalitis and the retardation!
Anyway, for myself - I MUST take the anti-depressant
in order to have the emotional stability TO WORK on my
inner issues. Believe me, taking a pill everyday the rest
of my life, at least insures I will HAVE a life. It is a
small price to pay to keep away from the obsessions and
suicidal thoughts !!! I would rather take that pill than
suffer the consequences. But that is just me..... I
choose to live, and live in a mental and emotional state
that allows me to be happy, or at least able to function
somewhat normally. I cannot live in the past, in the
pain, in a constant state of self examination.... WITHOUT
becoming suicidally depressed. So, I choose to just get
on with my life as best I can, and work on these issues
when, and if, my emotional strength is sufficient to see
me through it to the "other" side. After my
second suicide attempt, WHILE under the care of qualified
therapists AND doing all that inner work and self
discovery (and without the benefits anti-depressants give
me) ---- I decided "Enough is ENOUGH" and
stopped my (stubborn) denial that I had a disease. (Very
similar to diabetes - both can and do affect the brain
chemistry, and the endocrine system.) Medication to
correct that is a necessary and welcome part of my life -
given the alternative!!!!!!
So, my two cents worth...........
From: Claudia
Bravo Susan, I have a brother who is 4 yrs. older than
I who struggles greatly with the thought of taking his
antidepressants. He has taken himself off meds several
times in an effort to "do it on his own" and
each time he goes through Hell. I understand his struggle
in a way, he also is a recovering alcoholic. The thought
of being dependent on anything terrifies him. I have
tried to share my thoughts on the difference between
using and abusing but his fear speaks louder at this
point.
I would like your permission to copy your letter and
share this with him also. HE has alot of input from
recovering addicts that support his fear but to the best
of my knowledge little if any connections with persons
who are helped by medication. Thank you for the bravery
to be honest and convicted. Your words are very powerful.
From: Susan
If there is anything in the world that I feel more
strongly about, I have yet to find it. Please feel free
to copy and use any information, opinions, or advice that
I have shared here. If I can help one other person stay
out of "Hell", my struggle will have been worth
it.
Please remind your brother that modern, current
anti-depressants are not PHYSICALLY addictive. The
dependency is only the dependency that others would
consider "being a in a good frame of mind". NOT
ALL persons will take these medications forever. Please
encourage him to seek out others who DO take them with
good results. If he is able to get on the 'Net, he might
find the Mental Health Net to be useful, as well.
From: wolfie (kim)
Hi friends, Just wanted to let you know that 1) went
to the shrink and I really really liked him - he too has
been sober for over 10 years and he was totally in line
with my kind of thinking. He asked me "have you read
Conversations with God" and I smiled. Conversations
with God is my Most Favorite book of all time. I read it
in 1995 and for me, it is MY bible. He helped me see HOW
FAR I have come in 5 1/2 years and he gave practical
suggestions. I let him know that I really wanted
medication and he prescribed luvox. Anyway, I just wanted
to let you all know that it went really well!!!
Second of all, I just started reading another book
which I KNOW you would all Love!!!!! It is about a couple
who experienced first hand what we are ALL going through
in our relationships. All I can say is that, for me, the
similarities are incredible and I am gathering so much
insight and comfort from the book. It is called
"Kenny and Julia Loggins - The Unimaginable Life -
Lessons Learned on the Path of Love" What an awesome
book!!!! I would recommend it to all.
From: Claudia
Thanks for you willingness to share your own journey.
Congratualtions on finding a connected therapist. God
indeed provides many resources once we open the door to
our inner hurts. He fills them with grace and love...
Yippee Yi O Eieeeyyy!!!!! I look forward to continued
sharing on the journey.
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