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 Will she stay or leave? -
Cloakie
I have been married for 6 years, and now my wife tells
me that she has been unhappy the whole time and can't
decide whether or not she wants to stay in the marriage.
I am totally devastated. I have always been very giving,
and looking back now I see how she has never given
anything to the relationship. Anything I have ever asked
for she says that I am just trying to control her. I
can't stand the thought of being alone, if she leaves
I'll probably get myself into a bad relationship just to
have company. If anyone has any advice on how I can get
through this, please share, thanks
 From: trish
Dear Cloakie, Just a few questions. First are there
any children from this marriage? Next, what was your
relationship with your wife prior to the marriage? Was
there a courtship, was there a mutual friendship between
you two, how long did you know each other, were there
unresolved problems (prior to marriage). Is this a first
marriage for both of you. Trying to understand if there
was a foundation prior to your marriage, or if an attempt
to build one came after.
From: Cloakie
Thanks for replying...yes we have a 5 yr. old daughter
and we were high-school sweethearts, we had a few rough
times and separations, than she moved in with me when I
was about 21, we got engaged, married when I was 23. We
had a lot in common, but perhaps we grew up out of those
things. The biggest problem before marriage was when I
was going to university, she figured I wouldn't be
faithful there and decided to get herself another
boyfriend. The way she treated me then is like how she is
treating me now, which leads me to wonder if there is
another person in her life right now. I have asked
several times and she says no, but there are a lot of
signs. I have thought about hiring a P.I., but it is
expensive. And if she had an affair, it could already be
over, and now our problems stem from her guilt. Maybe I'm
just imagining it all, so many things going on right now
and no answers. Thanks.
From: Trish
Dear Cloakie, Thank you for answering so many
questions. I see hope due to the length of time you have
known each other, especially since it began early in your
lives. you wrote: "We had a lot in common, but
perhaps we grew up out of those things". You may
have hit something on the head there, more than you
realize.
I have 3 grown children, back when each of them turned
18 and graduated, mom (me) had a standard
"lecture". It went something like this: ok,
you're 18, all you know is what mom has taught you, and
what dad has taught you, you have had to follow our
rules. Now, my dear one, the real learning and growing up
begins, because you will be making your own decisions, on
what you know. This is the real beginning to your life,
the real growing up. And (Cloakie don't flip out) it will
probably take you the next 10 years to become really
comfortable with yourself and the decisions you make,
because dear one, people will be your teachers.
Anyway, Cloakie, it sounds like your wife wants to
grow. And how do you verbalize that? You have been
married for 6 years, a child. The everyday, same ole,
same ole. A woman, I think I can speak for some of us,
gets to a point when we say, is this all there is. What
about me. Even though you have been together for so long,
I will guess that she feels that 'you don't really know
her', and really at the same time, wants to find out more
about herself. Our chores, become just that, chores,day
to day, just become functioning, when we realize we are
not 'growing, and learning something new, not being
appreciated for who we 'want to be', doing something, we
feel is purposeful, the list goes on'. Well who's fault
will that be? You are the one there, so who do we blame.
Who do we blame when we don't even know why we are so
frustrated. At this point I would like to say, try not to
take the things she says to heart. When we don't really
know what we are feeling, we grasp, and look for reasons.
Don't ask her to dress up, because that may be saying,
see you don't see ME, she may feel you just want to have
sex , and she then may just feel like, see he doesn't
understand me and he thinks sex is going to make things
all better.
Boy, I am not real good at saying what I am trying to
say. You both have a wonderful opportunity, to grow. What
is happening tells me it IS time for a change. I am NOT
saying divorce (I hope). I would suggest you make an
appointment with a counselor as soon as possible, and
start going by yourself. Go ahead and ask if she would
like to go together, but don't make an issue out of it.
If she isn't ready, so be it. You go.
So many affairs do begin with these kinds of feelings
and words. Again, they are feelings, that with someone's
wisdom, can get sifted through. It is a human, natural
instinct to 'believe' another person will bring the
happiness we feel we are lacking and that another human
being is going to fill the emptiness within, it is
usually the first thought a person has, thinking that
will make it better.
You and your wife, I think, need to become friends
again, as adults and alot of talking. That will not just
happen. Looks like you may have to take the first step,
go to a counselor, and take a day at a time. Can you in
the meantime, give her some breathing room. Cloakie, I
know I didn't do a good job saying what I'm trying to get
through here. I hope something jumps out or makes some
sense.
From: Josie
Dear Cloakie: You must be feeling so confused and
fearful...It sounds as if you didn't have any idea about
your wife being unhappy. Has she talked to you about why
she has been unhappy all this time? It is a long time to
feel like that and I find it strange that she didn't let
you know about the situation. Was there any sort of
affection between you two at any time in the
relationship? You say that you are devastated. Is this
because you were happy with the way things were or
because you fear being alone, perhaps.. Is your wife
willing to go to marriage counseling? I think there might
still be a chance for you two because she says that
"she is not sure" whether to carry on in the
marriage or not. At least she hasn't said that she
definitely wants out yet. You must communicate with her
one way or another if you want to make it work.
I'm not saying that it will be easy, particularly if
you two aren't used to doing so but It sounds like there
is a lot of unspoken anger on both sides. You sound
resentful because you say you have always been the one to
'give'...By that do you mean material things or are you
also talking about emotions here. Whatever, you must also
hear her out. Maybe she feels that you were a good
provider but she needs other forms of showing love for
one another such as physical affection or even just being
able to 'open' up to you and have a good chat about what
she really feels inside and why she feels that you are
trying to 'control' her. I am not her, so I can't really
tell you what she is thinking. Only she, can Cloakie.
Wishing you the best...
From: Cloakie
Hello, and thanks for replying. To answer your
questions, she has told me a few of her reasons for being
unhappy. She says that I was never there for her for the
first four years of marriage. The thing is I was there,
and she seems stuck on a few bad memories rather than
remembering any of the good times. Other than that she
keeps saying that there are so many things that she
doesn't know where to start. As far as affection, there
were times when there was a lot of affection, but I think
that withholding affection was a way of punishing one
another. I think I am most devastated from my fear of now
having to face life alone. She has suggested marriage
counseling, and when I agreed, she backed off and has
been stalling. Since this all came out I have tried to
give her everything she needs to be happy, but she is
unwilling to give anything in return.
If I ask anything of her, she says it is an attempt to
control her, for example, if I ask her to dress up for
me. I don't see what the big deal is if she dresses up
for me once-in-a-while, but if I ask, she purposely
dresses down. There are lots of things like that, if I
ask for some affection, she takes it away. For the past
three days, I gave her total attention and affection (it
was one thing she said she needed), day one was nice, but
day two and three she started building a wall and by the
end of the third day, it all blew up and she couldn't
decide whether to stay or not. I can't see that I did
anything wrong in that time to cause this.
Anyways...thanks.
From: Josie
Thank you for answering back Cloakie. What I can sense
from your letter is a woman who is very resentful and
that she feels her husband 'wasn't there' for her
emotionally and not listening to her. I know you say you
were, but what men and women consider being emotionally
'available' often differs very much. I am not trying to
put the blame on you, merely attempting to help you
search for the truth.
You must REALLY listen to her about what she is trying
to tell you. Even if you disagree with what she is
stating these feelings are very real to her. You are
both, entitled to you feelings. Maybe what you thought
was enough availability was not so to her, even if there
were good times as well. Maybe in the end she got used to
the situation and even though things were going fairly
smoothly on the outside, in the inside there was some
emptiness and you grew apart.
You must have participated in some of these conflicts,
because you admit to also having withheld affection from
her as a form of 'punishment'. You must have felt very
hurt that your ways of showing you loved her, weren't
being appreciated. When couples withhold affection
repeatedly, they end up building a wall that stops them
from communicating and wanting to share themselves with
their SO. You say about the time when you started being
nice to her and how nice it was the first day.
Unfortunately when there is so much built resentment
inside us we need to get rid of some of it to start
feeling better and loving again. You cannot heal if these
feelings are still present. Do you think that is what
happened to her.
Maybe she felt 'crowded' and overwhelmed all of a
sudden after feeling for a long time that you couldn't
reach each other. If I was you I wouldn't ask her to
dress up for you. Not yet. From a woman's point of view,
something like that would be really irritating when the
relationship is not going well. I know, I know... You
feel that it is a completely harmless thing to request,
and no doubt, if the rest of the relationship was ok she
would probably do it for you gladly. Trust me on this
one. She probably feels that little things like that just
confirm that you are not sensitive to her needs.
I hope that she does agree to go to counseling with
you. You could even go on your own, and then, as you
learn to relate better with her she might want to come
too. If she does decide to leave, then there's probably
little you can do, my friend. I know the prospect of
being on your own is really frightening you. Do you think
that maybe she senses that you just want her 'there' out
of habit, rather than wanting her, because you love and
care for her?. I would say, give her as much freedom as
she needs to sort herself out and she might come back. If
you don't, It won't make her stay anyway.
Please, don't resort to hiring a P.I. A relationship
cannot be helped by spaying on each other and if she
found out she might never forgive you. All the best to
you Cloakie...I understand it's going to be very painful
for a while whatever happens...but I know you'll make it
with or without her.
From: mzet
I know how you feel. you are not alone. anyone who has
gone through the mess of an affair feels devastated also.
read some of Bernd's and my postings' on the subject.
though you don't know if your wife is having an affair,
the themes are very close since she's fallen out of love.
concentrate on healing yourself first. this is one of
the things that I learned through the hell of my wife's
affairs. the fact that you feel devastated is a pretty
good indication of where you have to start to look for
answers and where you need to rebuild: within you. after
you are at peace with completely letting go of her, then
and only then does the possibility of her wanting to
share some of that peace (which she will not get with an
affair) opens up.
on the control issue: you will always lose that
battle.forget the p.i. forget the spying. we all do it,
but ultimately the best thing is to let go. let her go.
give her more and more space, as much as she demands.
(and don't blow up in front of her, despite the
unbelievable amount of hurt you will experience). she
perceives control and that is what matters, even if you
don't intend it. the more she perceives it, the more you
turn her off.
will she stay or leave? that is the wrong question to
ask. concentrate on what you can control: your self. read
Scott peck's "the road less traveled". it
changed my life. write on a journal. go to counseling
even if she does not want to. my ideas are not a
guarantee, but I firmly believe that they are a way of
opening up to the possibility of love from a radically
free perspective. love is a decision that opens up before
us only after we fall out of love.
last week I left home. I still love by ex-wife, she
still loves somebody else. but the important thing is
that I used the opportunity of my wife's affairs to
become a better person, a better father and a better
lover. I wish I had a magic wand to erase all your pain.
but I am afraid that only by going through it and not
around it can one grow.
From: trish
Dear Cloakie, me again, what I was trying to say
through all the garble, is that I believe our 20's are
our true beginning for growing, our growing years to
prepare for our adult life. I have seen so many young
people struggle through marriage, because they go into to
it with young love filled with hopes and dreams. Then
when the routine of everyday sets in, it's like, 'what am
I doing', I haven't done anything', I think you know what
I'm talking about. Also, and I'm going to show my age
here, the world has led so many to feel they're missing
out in something, that there is 'something better' out
there.
You and your wife, started out young, so you are
'familiar' with each other and time does create a bond
(as long as there has been no abuse). No one knows the
past you have had together, if there has been constant
fussing at each other, or if you have shown a mutual
respect for each other these past years. You and your
wife have a chance to start a new phase in your lives.
The suspicions and thoughts of an affair can and will
destroy this opportunity for you to start a new outlook,
a new respect for your wife, to learn to 'know her'. Now,
this all sounds like I'm saying Cloakie, you're going to
be doing all the 'giving', NO, when you start to
'change', you will see change. When you begin to
understand, you will be helping her understand.
The outcome can and could be a new 'mutual' respect
and a new love for each other. Dearest Cloakie, just when
we think we're grown up, life shows us that we are just
beginning. But it does and can get better and fulfilling
with 'the want' to learn and grow. Hope I'm making sense
dear friend.
From: PD
Dear Cloakie, I understand what you are going through.
I put my SO through the same things, except I DID have an
affair. It was not because I didn't love him any
longer,(even though I told myself I didn't) it was
because something was missing from our relationship, and
I had NO CLUE as to what that was. All I knew is that the
person I had met....made me feel loved, respected and
desired (unconditionally). After numerous attempts to
make our marriage work, (I left 3 times) we could not
come to an understanding. I did not know what to tell him
was missing, just that the person I had met made me feel
loved and special. He thought I was crazy, over emotional
etc...and thought I would never be happy and that I just
expected too much from him and life. I felt the same way
she does (your wife), I thought I was being controlled
and I thought I did not love my SO anymore. He didn't
understand me or what I was going through. I gave up!!!!
We had drifted apart...after 15 years of being
together. I had lost all hope for us. I had filed for a
divorce, and was about to end our marriage forever. We
did not seek counseling, and I wish we had of. I had
moved out for the 3rd time and was "FINALLY getting
on with my life" when someone gave my hubby the
Mars/Venus book. I went and bought the book too, and it
changed our outlook on each other, and life in general. I
am not saying it was THE answer to our problems...we have
many, but it sure opened the door to REAL communication
for us. It made us understand what each other needs and
expects of each other. I didn't know what was missing
from our lives, I just knew someone else was fulfilling
that need, not my SO. This all happened over a 9 month
period, and to say the least it sucked. I thought I was
loosing it for a while, but then came to realize (with
the help of the book) I was totally normal (which helped
tremendously knowing I wasn't crazy) and because of the
lack of communication, we had became alienated from one
another. We had been just going through the motions for
years,and I didn't think I loved him any more.
I am sure this all sounds so easy, but it wasn't. But
I think everything happens for a reason. Maybe it took
all of this to make us realize we were both growing and
had grown away from each other instead of with each
other. Peoples needs change with time, sometimes without
knowing what those needs are. Since then, I have read
several books...two in particular I think have been the
best... Games Lovers Play by E.Edward Reitman, Phd. It is
about people and games they play with each other...(head
games and such). The other is Co-Dependent No More. I do
not have the authors name handy, but it is a really good
book too. It helps you to become more independent and not
let others control you or you control them.
I know I did not want any help when I was going
through all of this, I just thought things were the way
they were and that was that and that people could not
change. Boy was I ever wrong. In my wildest dreams...I
never thought things could be as good as they are now.
Don't ever give up. Try counseling. Have you two
discussed it? I didn't want to go,(I wish I had of now).
I didn't think anyone else could solve my problems. But
it DOES help to get an outsiders opinion, even from a
book. Even if you go alone, it will help you feel better
about yourself and her. The love can be re-kindled with
some help. Give her some space, love and attention. Try
not to be too demanding of her. It took 6 years for it to
get to this point, and it will not be put back together
overnight.
I had a lot of internal searching I had to do to get
to the point where I am today. (we are back together and
very happy). I learned that having an affair was not the
answer, that was just running from my problems. No other
person can make me happy, I have to make myself happy and
come to terms with myself. I also learned that we are all
responsible for our own actions, and cannot blame others
for our unhappiness. It can be done....it just takes time
and patients. One day at a time...is how I try to take
it. Just my thoughts on the matter...I hope it helps.
Hang in there!!!!
From: mzet
pd, from your perspective, what is there to do from
the perspective of the" injured party" (i.e,
the one who did not have the affair) to encourage the
other party to get to the point of really wanting to work
things out? am I correct in saying that the answer is
letting go, giving the other party space, until he or she
has a change of heart, realizes that the affair was a
pain killer, that it was not the answer, that people can
change permanently and learn once again to meet each
other's needs, etc., etc.,? and what in the world made
you accept his suggestion of reading the book since in my
experience all suggestions for healing coming from me are
interpreted as control? what made you feel ready to take
that risk? was the "heat" of the affair over?
is that what it takes?
(in our case, I was the one who filed for divorce, I
could not sustain the pain of seeing her longing for
someone else any longer. my wife wanted a separation, but
I think it would have been crazy for me to leave without
having a marital settlement agreement settling the major
issues just in case things took a bad turn later on. I
still have a sliver of hope, but it is sooo thin...
anyway, another funny thing is that for a period of three
weeks, from the day I made the decision to seek a divorce
until we signed the agreement and I moved out, we had a
relatively calm and peaceful time, not great, but at
least we were tolerating each other better than
before....) keep writing please. I am learning from you
all the time.
From: PD
I really do not know what prompted me to go and buy
the book. He just told me I needed to go and get
it...(drop everything and go buy it) and read it. At that
point I didn't know what the book said, and he gave me
tidbits..enough to make me want to try to see what he was
seeing in it. So I did, I went that afternoon, and bought
it.
I am not sure what your situation is exactly..or what
it was that your wife was unhappy about, or what yours
and her problems were. All I know is that deep down, I
never wanted a divorce. I never intended to have an
affair either. ALL I ever wanted was to be loved and
treated with respect and feel special again. My SO didn't
make me feel that way, so I retreated to someone that did
just that. My SO was always the "Macho" kind of
guy, that was untouchable. Or at least that is how I
always saw him. Little did I know that underneath all of
that "hard skin" was a very emotional little
boy kind of guy. Like I said, all of this took a lot of
time to surface. But once it did, we were able to talk
about things we never talked about before. He FINALLY
wanted to know what made me tick and why. He didn't stop
my sentences anymore by telling me I was over emotional
and crazy. He finally understood why I did what I
did.(not that that made it right) He also told me he
thought he drove me to it by not acknowledging my
feelings. Of all of the people I know, he was the last
one I ever thought would ever let me come back and try to
make things work. But he allowed me the space I needed,
to figure things out on my own. He didn't tell me the
book would change my mind, he just suggested I read it. I
am very glad I did. He was also seeing other people too.
(after I left) I think I was very jealous of the fact he
was seeing other people too. Made me realize it WAS
OVER!!
The heat of my affair was not over at that time,
things were going great actually.I had decided my
marriage was over and that was that. I did have alot of
guilt though. I will never forget that person. He showed
me what it is like to be loved unconditionally, I just
regret that he was caught up in the middle of all of my
confusion. He deserves better than that.
I just had to make a decision and stick with it, and I
did after reading the book. My conscience would not let
me rest Mzet...I knew I had done something terribly
wrong, and I couldn't live with myself until I knew I had
given my ALL to my marriage, which I had not done. You
see, some people really do not let things bother them. I
am not saying your wife has no conscience, but the guilt
really played hard on me heart. The affair was ok for a
while, and I TRULY loved this other person, but in my
heart I knew it was not right, and I couldn't go on with
it until I knew that I had made every effort in the world
to try to reconcile my marriage. If I put the effort into
my marriage, that I had into the affair, surely it could
be better. So that is what I decided to do, after reading
the books, and a loooong 3 1/2 weeks 1200 miles away from
both my SO and my lover.
I have alot to be thankful for. I have two wonderful
children, a 10 acre farm which was our dream all along,
and a wonderful family who has been there for me through
all of this. My lover and I wanted the same things that I
already had....a place in the country, horses,(which I do
not have yet...but will) and even the same kind of house
I always dreamed of. I resented the fact that I had to
start all over again, since I was halfway there already.
I just had a real hard time trying to get my SO to
understand my feelings. If he had not have read the
book....I honestly do not think we would be together
today.
I do not have any real advice for you...except that
you have to believe in yourself and love yourself. You
cannot change her mind, she has to do that. Maybe with
time and patients, she will. For now, get on with your
life. Try to make yourself happy. Is she still with the
guy she had the affair with? Are you still in contact
with her? I know I am rambling here.....but I have so
much to say, and it makes me feel so much better when I
write about the things I have learned and am learning
everyday. Hope this helps you a little.
From: mzet
when I read your postings I feel it could be my wife
writing them. it gives me such a sense of hope.... I
still see my wife, of course, we have four little
children, ages three to nine. I miss them terribly, so I
am almost in daily contact with them (and her
indirectly).
I think I am over the whole thing emotionally, and
going ahead with the divorce was important for me because
it was the proof that I can have my own life. I am seeing
another woman, but I just don't want to get too involved
right now, she is just a friend, barely. it's just nice
to know I'm not the monster my wife seems to think I am
and that another woman actually says yes to a lunch or a
dinner invitation. I have not told my wife about her. I
don't want to use another relationship to get rid of the
last one. I've done that three times in my life and I
think it didn't work too well. there are things inside of
me that need to come out before I can ever throw myself
into another love relationship, things like my spiritual
side, things like work, things like my kids, things like
reading literature, like enjoying art, etc. I want to see
what it means to celebrate life without a significant
other, to see if it is possible, at least for a while, to
explore other aspects of myself that I never had a chance
to explore since I was in high school and college....
having that peace and joy is important for me now and I
think it may be important for any hopes of a
reconciliation or another relationship. maybe my wife
will want a piece of that too...
she had not seen the guy she had the affair with for
maybe two months, but I could tell she really longed to
be with him. I know she is madly in love with him still.
she already contacted him last week, but I get the
feeling that at least in these initial re-contacting
days, both my wife and him, particularly him, are
wondering how the hell a relationship between them can
work out. my wife has told me time and again that she
sees no future there, but that she just wants to be with
him, that she has such intense feelings for him, that he
makes her feel loved, complete, realized, like a woman,
etc. you catch my drift? you know how it goes!
both my wife and I think our marriage was good, we
never thought it would end this way, we knew it was
perfectible, and even as the affair was unfolding we were
holding hands to our first therapy session and told the
therapist we had the best marriage and wanted to work it
out. but there was something missing. she kept looking
for that something outside until she found it, rather
than looking inside of herself or the marriage. and we
both just didn't sense how terribly wrong things must
have been until it was too late and the power of falling
in love was overwhelming. your description of your
feelings for your lover are word for word what my wife
feels. it's scary....
what has frustrated me through this whole mess has
been that her affair began at a time in my life when I
had finally began to set my priorities around the family,
but , like she's told me, too little too late....anyway,
I think what she wanted is what you wanted: to feel
special and loved. I just resent that in my mind, I was
never given the chance to give her what she wanted, not
even now. I guess it's just too risky for her. she feels
I'm going to fall back into the same patter, whatever
that was, and suck her life away....
you write about a very important transition in your
feelings for your SO, when you began to discover what was
underneath all of his "hard skin". I'm not the
macho type, but I am more introspective than other men.
that is what my wife was attracted to in me, the
intellectual, stable side (I'm not a total bore by any
stretch of the imagination. I love to dance and to
participate in active sports, but I did have to give up
some of my wilder, risk taking side when I married and
starting having kids--like rock-climbing--and took up
other sports, like cycling). But there are things to be
discovered and re-discovered underneath my introspection,
by myself and by her, if she tries. and the other way
around. it's just that I am sure she feels it's so much
easier and spontaneous with her lover and that everything
with me is so difficult and forced and unnatural....I am
curious to find out about that transition to discover
what was underneath his shell. was it curiosity? was it
wanting to? you talk about time, and I know time is
relative, but it could not have been only time, there
must have been another ingredient.
I know my wife is also guilt ridden: for the kids, her
family, my family, her lover and me. it's like everybody
gets hurt, including herself. regardless of what she
decides, somebody gets hurt. I know the lover must feel
guilty too, about being a partial instrument to the
destruction of a family like the one he longs to have. I
know guilt plays an important role in affairs, but I
don't know how it will affect my wife. so far she seems
pretty immune to it in terms of her decision making
process, though I know it twists her conscience and it
makes her suffer (but I guess not enough!)
my wife has not given the marriage a 100% effort
perhaps because she never really gave 100% effort to the
affair either. she never moved out, she never left me
with the kids, in fact, she never really spent that much
time with the lover after the affair got sexual. it was
always touch and go, maybe because of her guilt?, so I
think that at a time when we were supposed to be working
on the marriage, she was always wondering what about her
lover, what would it be like to live with him, what it
would mean for the kids, etc. I don't know, maybe I'm
wrong...., it's also that she could never imagine that
life with me could me any good after her lover made her
feel in heaven. I have told her that it takes a leap of
faith to believe that you can grow a garden in the desert
and on a pile of shit. but it takes a leap and it takes a
willingness to assume risk. not sure she's ready for
that.
you also talk about your time away from everybody,
lover, SO, etc. she's never done it since her affair, and
the times that she had the opportunity to do so, and
she's been out of town, she started another relationship!
she seems to be unable or unwilling to face herself by
herself.... anyway, I have rambled and rambled far too
long. your postings really help. keep writing, please, it
does help.
From: Josie
Dear mzet: A book that might help you if you can get
it is: " TEMPTED WOMEN: The Passion, The Peril And
The Agony Of Female Infidelity" by Carol Botwin. I
bought it here in Britain but it was originally published
in the U.S (If you live there)...in1994 by William Morrow
and Company, Inc. Your pain and love for your wife really
comes through in your postings.
The book helped me understand about my own affair
towards the end of my 13 year marriage to my 'childhood
sweetheart'. The posting from PD about her feelings
through the affair could have been written by me or by
the many, many women who participated in the making of
the book.
Reading through the book helped me to understand what
had happened in the marriage and I am sure it would be an
eye opener and an insight into female emotions. By the
way I find your postings a real help because it gives me
a very good insight into the way men feel. Thank you.
Keep on being strong! You are a beautiful human being.
From: mzet
thanks for your kind words. I will pick up the book
you recommended. the world of fiction, by the way, is
also full of examples of infidelity that I have found
both entertaining and fascinating. if you have not read
them, pick up "Madam Bovary" by Flaubert and
"Anna Kerenina" by Tolstoy, which are two of
the classics. I do want to ask your perspective on a few
questions I have, if you don't mind:
why is it that those spouses who have affairs keep
talking about "what happened in the marriage"
as causing the affair? do you really feel, looking back,
that the marriage itself was to blame for the affair and
the separation or divorce, or did the emotional
conditions that lead to an affair spill over the marriage
months prior to the affair itself and seal its fate?
when I look back at myself, during the more recent
times of my marriage, before and during my wife's affair,
during the worst treatment I had ever experienced in my
life, much much worse than anything I ever did to my
wife, I just could not justify intellectually, morally or
emotionally, looking for companionship, love and sex from
another woman. how is it that an unintentional lack of
communication or intimacy on both spouses (or whatever
the excuse for the affair is, take your pick) can lead
either the husband or the wife to have an affair?
my answers to these questions lead me to believe that
the falling in love with the lover is more related to the
person having the affair falling in love than with the
personality of the spouse or the misery of the marriage.
in other words, the one having the affair makes decisions
and evaluates the spouse and the marriage ex-post-facto,
from from the perspective of being in love with someone
else, and, hence naturally tends to concludes that the
marriage or the spouse or both are not worth the effort
since they do not live up to the passion and level of
love that the affair has. once the one having the affair
starts down that path of interpretation of his or her
emotions and relationships, even after the affair is
over, it becomes very very difficult and painful to step
back and evaluate the risk of re-establishing a bond with
the spouse.
if the marriage or the spouse are so bad, why not seek
therapy, separation or divorce prior to looking for or
being open to falling in love with someone else? and why
is it that most second marriages, especially those
established between the ex-spouse and the lover, have a
higher probability of ending in a second divorce? doesn't
this point to answers within yourself rather than within
the marriage or your spouse? how far off am I? and why?
I don't even know that asking or answering these
questions point to anything constructive. I am just
curious. maybe affairs are the only mechanism or at least
the easiest way that certain personality types have to
begin to discover what's wrong with themselves. if that's
the case, man, is it a painful way! but then again, I
know in my own mind that if my wife wouldn't have had an
affair I would not have been able to reach the levels of
self understanding, spirituality, love and maturity that
I currently have. this sounds sick, but I am not sure I
would want to change anything that happened, except for
the pain caused to our children.
From: Robert
Mzet, I believe you have read Peck's " The Road
Less Traveled." In answer to you question about
looking outside the marriage / relationship, I would
suggest you reread the section on laziness and how he
relates is to evil and original sin. Just my 2 cents
worth.. Be well.
From: Josie
I too, am a fan of Mr. Scott peck although I didn't
entirely agree with him in the subject of 'evil' in his
book 'People of the lie'. 'The Road Less travel' made a
great impact in mine and my S.O's life. If you
haven't...may I suggest that you also read the chapter
concerning 'civility during marriage' in his book 'A
world waiting to be born' (my favorite) and the chapters
about 'Chastity' and 'Blaming and judging' in 'Further
along the Road Less Travel' ?
From: mzet
yes I have, and maybe that's the answer, original sin,
entropy, laziness. but how do those who have affairs look
at themselves after the affair is over? is peck on
target? I know Bernd has a slightly different view, and I
suspect PD and others do too. I'm curious.
and why is it that some can resist the temptation and
others can't? are some pre-wired to continue to seek the
thrill of romantic involvement, even (or especially)
after marriage, like alcoholics and alcohol? are we
really talking about something akin to a disease process
here? maybe we are. big and scary questions!
From: Josie
Dear mzet: Thanks for your posting. I don't know the
answers to your questions and I still don't know all the
answers to why I had an affair or my marriage ended. What
I do know is that there certainly was no laziness in my
part. My own individual case is as follows:
I am Spanish and my Father worked for the Spanish
Embassy so the family ended up moving with him and his
job to several countries. When I was fifteen we'd just
moved to Britain and I met my ex-husband who was a year
younger. We loved each other madly but had no sex because
I was at the time a very "devout catholic" and
coming from catholic Spain young girls at that time just
didn't usually have pre- marital sex.
We got engaged two months after meeting each other.
Then a few months after that, my parents said we had to
move to Puerto Rico for three years. We were devastated
and promised to each other that our love would never end
and indeed we wrote across the world twice a week. I was
a very pretty and popular girl and got asked out a lot
but I never went out with anyone as I loved him so much.
After a year he had saved enough money to come and visit
me in P.R and he ended up staying with my family for two
years.
We were children. He would wait for me after school
and then we would both go skateboarding or out with
friends by then we had started having sex although I felt
pretty guilty about it. We married when I was eighteen
and went to live in his country: Britain. Within three
months I was pregnant. He was really loving still and I
was madly in love with him. When we had our daughter it
came to a great shock to me that he was not prepared to
help at all and I was absolutely shattered as the baby
would not sleep very much.
Twenty months later I had my second daughter (failed
contraception) but a very wanted baby. By this time
though,op he spent quite a lot of time at
"work" (12 years later I found he had already
being unfaithful at that stage). Although he
"loved" me and the kids, I was responsible for
every aspect of their care. If they were ill I, would
have to go and sleep with the ill child on the sofa
unless I could keep their cries from disturbing him.
I felt isolated in a small one bedroom flat, no
washing machine and two babies in cloth diapers to wash
by hand, no proper heating and no family or friends for
support. He never understood why I felt 'down'... Three
years later we had our third baby (again a different
contraception failure) but wanted very much, none- the-
less. But his first reaction was "It can't be
mine...there are 'things' you can do to stop the
pregnancy...you know" I was so hurt!! I never even
went out unless it was to the super market or with him,
how could he say that?...He probably didn't mean it...
He later denied he'd said it and he absolutely adored
his son when he was born. When I was seven months
pregnant he said we had to move to Wales as he was going
to try another 'new project' as the editor of a surfing
magazine. (There were many projects that failed but he
always had my support and to be fair he thought he was
doing it for the best). At that time my wonderful, loving
father died suddenly of cancer. With all the sadness,hard
work of moving countries, two little ones to care for and
no help I was completely exhausted and went into
premature labour.
Both myself and the baby nearly died during the labour
and I had to have an emergency caesarian birth with the
baby in special care for weeks and me very ill . He often
told us that he loved us and spoke about us to other
people with great affection. I had some help from the
social services because of the situation but even she,
noticed that he was coming home to pick up his surf gear
in the afternoons, instead of coming home to help after
work.
The health visitor also tried to have a 'subtle word
with him, unknown to me but he laughed it off and would
say "bunch of feminists!" They made it obvious
what they thought but were the only true support I ever
had. With this baby I became even more isolated whilst
his social life really flourished. He was really popular
and every body seemed to know him because surfing is so
popular in Wales and the magazine was doing very well.
He would work until the afternoon and then go surfing
and then would come back for his food in the evening
before going out with friends for drinks or night clubs.
(he always said it was to talk more business and that he
was doing this for 'us'). When he came back at night he
always wanted sex and for me to 'dress up' for him. I
started to feel used. He thought it was a little joke
between us that if I woke him up in the night for oral
sex the next morning he would leave me a five pound note.
(about 2 dollars) on the pillow the next day.
Every day I would wait for him to come back. When I
heard him my heart would still skip a bit at that time.
Invariably he would say how nice I looked and loved me
and then go out with friends. Every evening I would be
upset that he spent virtually not time with me and the
kids. (later I learned to my great shock that he was
having a string of short affairs with secretaries and
young 'surf groupy' girls. I always thought he was VERY
faithful. I did try to talk to him about how the
relationship was running into problems, how nice it would
be to sit on the couch after the kids had gone to bed and
hold hands and chat etc, etc.
At one point I suspected briefly that he might be
having affairs but when I asked he made out that I was
paranoid and had post natal depression and then he hugged
me and said he would never do that. I was a good wife
mzet. Now I think I was too good at that time. I saw life
and love like a little girl, through rose tinted
spectacles. I never thought he would be unfaithful
because I always gave so much during sex and was good to
him.
I would have his clothes ironed, his food ready and
would make sure I look attractive for him. I always
really looked after my body and would dress up for
him...Anything he wanted I gave gladly. He often told me
how lucky he felt to have such a wonderful and
adventurous sex life. As a lover he was very selfish but
he was, affectionate and I would not hear a bad word
against him when people tried to get me to 'wake up'. All
his friends had a 'crush' on me at one time or another
and he thought this was quite funny and I think it made
him feel important, but I just loved him and wanted us to
be the way it was before.
I am not saying this to be 'big headed' but to make it
a point that he had no need to look outside our marriage
for sexual excitement. Through out this time he had
accumulated lots of debts. The electricity, the phone,
the gas...everything got 'cut off' at one time or other
and I would get the Bailiffs turning at my door often. He
kept telling me this was completely normal and he thought
it really stupid that it upset me so much.
I had a pittance for food shopping but by planning
carefully I would make nourishing meals and the kids were
always dressed well, but from my rummaging through
charity stores. He always had fashionable clothes and to
be fair he would get me some very nice cut price things
from surf stores. He drove a two seater Porsche which was
also re-possessed in end. He always denied 'things' had
changed and he would put his arms around and tell me how
much he loved all of us and that I only felt like that
because I had no friends. Well, how could I?
What he called my 'own time' was for me to go and look
around the shops with the kids or for us to go to the
beach whilst he surfed. Any female friends he introduced
to me 'to help me' were soon disliked by him as soon as I
started to know them and dismissed by him as a 'bad
influence' for me. He would be very jealous and on the
couple of times I was 'allowed' to go to the cinema or
for a drink with them I had to wear trousers or a long
skirt.
On the rare occasions we managed to get a babysitter
and go out together he liked me to dress in attractive
clothes but he would be infuriatingly over- protective
and would do things such as accompany me to the lavatory
and wait by the door until I finished in case "I was
chatted up"etc. When he went on vacation (with his
surf friends) he would ring home in the night several
times to say he was missing me. I think he was just
checking I was not out of the house.
We did have a few holidays as a family together and
they are my best memories of the marriage. He would be
generous then, and made sure we had a nice time and
behaved like a very good husband and father and was very
affectionate. At the weekends we would go out to eat
together or to the park in the mornings and I loved and
lived for the weekends when he would spend a bit of his
time with us. Like I said any hint that we go to
counseling or that there was a problem was completely
ignored by him and thought as a 'ridiculous idea for
people with marital problems'. He once told me not to
ever think that I could go and have an affair because no
man would ever want me with 3 kids.
I genuinely believed this. I was so, so naive. I now
realize that I had no freedom, no money unless I asked
him, no help with the kids or house chores but because he
still was loving towards us he thought of himself as the
best dad and husband in the world. My affair came when
his magazine project fell through. He then started
another one selling surf gear with a partner. He kept
bringing him to eat with us before going out for drinks
and then sleep at home as this guy 'was lonely'. At first
I complained bitterly. Over the months this other guy was
virtually living in my home and my husband thought I was
'nagging' when I complained!.
This guy was obviously becoming more and more in love
with me. At the time I did not reciprocate and actually
threatened to tell my husband if he didn't stop telling
me how he felt. I did tell him, and my husband just said
not to worry it would soon pass. I fell in love with him.
It hit me suddenly. He became obsessed with me. Started
bringing home gifts as a 'thank you' for feeding him etc.
I felt very sorry for him because he had an alcohol
problem and he said he was ill.
He became obsessed with me and started to bring home
nice clothes for the kids, presents etc. My husband
thought it was very generous of him I wasn't sure what to
think. My husband started to get jealous after a while
but still was very friendly with him. This man would stay
up late with me talking for ages. It was GREAT that he
was interested in what I had to say. For months we had no
physical contact and were just friends. One night they
both came home drunk and whilst my husband was sleep he
tried to kiss me and tell me he loved me so much and that
it hurt him to see me treated like 'shit'.
I wouldn't have it and he got really upset and angry
and told me to stop feeling so guilty and worrying about
hurting my husband because he had had at least 5 affairs
and had bragged about this to him on many occasions. I
knew it was true because the details he gave me he about
people he couldn't have known. He said I was the only who
didn't know about it. I was absolutely shocked. 'Things'
begun to fall into place: "the late and all night
workings" in the start of our marriage. The flowers
or chocolates the next day for yet again "letting me
and the children down". ...and how I had thought he
was wonderful and how hard he was working for me and the
kids...We missed him so much in these occasions!! I cried
so much!
I had a full blown affair with this guy for about half
a year. I must admit the sex was a revelation and it felt
strange and wonderful that someone wanting to please ME.
The guilt was terrible on my part and my lover's part but
it was not enough to stop the affair. I feel ashamed to
say. Their partnership and friendship stopped to the
point where my lover threaten to kill my husband and with
that I thought "enough is enough" and the
affair was over. My lover wanted me to move with him but
he did not want to take the girls, just the boy. I could
not cause this pain to my children I chose to stay in the
marriage because I loved them and did not want to cause
any more pain to any one. My lover was devastated and
moved to another country.
I could not eat or sleep and became very thin. I went
into a deep depression. I still loved and missed my lover
so much and also the guilt of what I had done was eating
away at me like a cancer. Meanwhile my husband's reaction
was to try and make me a prisoner in my own home. I was
hardly allowed and he spied on me all the time. For the
first time my husband started to be at home in the
evening most nights and help and try to please me
sexually and wanted to sit and hold hands etc just like
I'd begged him before so many times, ironically. but I
was just going through the motions and I felt all this
was too late.
I could not stand the spying. If my mother rang me up
from Spain my husband would be next to me to make sure it
was her. He said he was doing it "for my own
good". He also wrote a letter to my lover's parents
explaining what had happened (I hated him for that). I
felt like a small child. For a few months things seemed
to be getting better but his presence now felt like I had
a bodyguard.
I then was accepted to do a midwifery course. There
were only 10 places and 16.000 people applied for it and
I got in. At last I saw light at the end of the tunnel.
We had to do tests, interviews etc. This was my dream and
had been for years: To become an Midwife. At home I
worked so hard all the time and I felt completely given
for granted. In fact my husband often told me it would do
me good to see what work was like because "I had not
done a day's work in my life!! Boy, That hurt!!... All
the sleepless nights, cooking, looking after ill kids,
doing all the housework as well as supporting him through
all his 'projects'...
I realized that I had fallen out of love with him and
all his efforts felt smothering instead of sincere and he
complained that I was being really cold and detached from
him when he was being good to me. I did really well and
loved my training, the shifts, the paper work and essays
seeing a baby being born for the first time...I was
really good at it and got excellent grades. I still did
the lion's share of the work at home too.
People REALLY appreciated me there. At home I felt
completely given for granted despite my hard work. He
then started really complaining that I was always at work
or completing assignments, about the quality of the food,
his shirts weren't properly ironed. He hated the fact
that I had my own money (even though it was only a small
scholarship) He pressured me into giving him my first
salary payment and promised to give it back when the
'coming up new project worked out' ( He never gave it all
back)
He threatened to take the kids away for being a bad
mother unless I became a "proper wife" again. I
think he realized then what he had had all these years...
The marriage broke down. My house got re-possessed
because he owed thousands of pounds on it. I was left to
pay debts but I had found my independence and I managed
to make a good life for me and the kids. I still see him
when he sees the kids. Funnily enough his relationship
keeps braking down with her girlfriend because "she
doesn't want to be his mother" I know how she feels.
He still thinks everything was my fault. That he was a
good husband, father and provider and that because he did
not love the girls he had his affairs with and were
'purely physical' not enough reason to brake a marriage.
Funnily enough, I still feel terrible about what
happened. It feels like he was a little child and I hurt
him. I know he still thinks he 'loves me' and has said to
people that now he is a changed man. I still love him in
a way... Like a brother who is a 'bit of a pain the the
ass'. I know I will never cheat again because my current
relationship is completely different and I know now how
much hurt an affair can cause. mzet: I am so sorry that
this has been such a long posting. I think it must be the
longest letter I have ever written to anyone but it is
the only way I could respond to your posting. You don't
have to read it all if you don't want. I have read the
classics you mention. I liked them too.
From: mzet
thanks for your long posting. you mention that I don't
have to read it at all if I don't want to, but that was
almost your last sentence...too late :)
what really hit me from reading your words is that
every case is unique and that sometimes I am to quick to
judge and "project" my case onto others. it
does not work that way. I can, however, find resonances
in many of the feelings you express and how my wife felt
or feels, particularly those on how difficult you found
his trying to elicit love back from you after you had
fallen out of love: the sensation of being smothered and
that his change or intention to change came too late. the
unintended consequences of my trying to elicit love from
my wife still hurt.
I understand what led to the breakdown of your
marriage. I think your ex-husband had a very difficult
time giving you the space within which you could
"be", an essential component of any mature love
relationship, and his affairs certainly aggravated
everything.
I don't understand what led to the breakdown of my
marriage, perhaps never will, but reading you opens up
some windows, and some wounds too. embracing what has
happened to me, with all the pain and joy and paradoxes,
and offering it to God keeps me going. p.s.: by the way,
you're a good writer. and have you read any Garcia
Marquez?
From: Josie
Thank you for your very touching reply. After I wrote
last night I went to bed and felt really ashamed and
disloyal to my ex- husband for having written about what
happened in our marriage and just as you say, it opened
up all sorts of old wounds again. I couldn't go to sleep
for ages thinking about it all.... I have read several of
Garcia Marquez's novels. One of my favourites is 'Of love
and other demons'. I found it to be quite satirical but
also a story full of compassion. Another one I enjoyed
very much too was 'Love in the time of cholera'. Have you
read them? A Colombian friend of mine introduced me to
his work. By the way reading is one of my great passions.
It has kept me 'sane' during some difficult times in my
life!
From: mzet
I have read everything that marquez has written and
many of the "Latin American boom" writers, in
Spanish. (I live in the u.s. but am originally from
Venezuela). yes, reading good literature has always been
my passion. there is something about letting a book
complement the "real world" in meaningful ways,
to the point where the question of what is real and what
is the product of the imagination of a writer and a
reader becomes a blur. sorry about the old wounds, but
they are there for a reason, I guess.
From: Josie
Thank you mzet: I am feeling better now. I think that
perhaps it did me good to recall about my life. Until now
despite his affairs, lack of support etc. I still thought
that it was me, me, me that was to blame and often cried
silently for having hurt him so. I know that I will
always feel like this about what happened. (If you knew
me, you'd realize how out of character this part of my
life was for me). Some good came out of everything though
because now I am a better, more mature person. I was
extremely naive when I married and when the affair
happened and my ex- husband has said to me that he did
not tell me about the affairs he had because I was not
emotionally mature to handle them. Ps: Has leido
"Mil cuentos de la Alhambra"?.
From: PD
Mzet, The ONLY thing I ever accomplished in my affair
...was feeling loved unconditionally and knew what it
felt like to love someone back unconditionally. Something
My SO COULD not do and WOULD not do. He told me he
refused to go around telling me he loved me all of the
time, and that he went to work everyday and came home
every night and that I should know he loved me. Keeping
that kind of attitude in mind, I never thought there was
any hope for us at all. I had become accustomed to
holding in my feelings as well as not receiving the love
I desperately longed for.I talked to him about it many
many times, and he told me I was crazy, over-emotional,
and that after 15 years of marriage, that was the way it
was. I saw my SO parents act in the same non-loving way,
and thought that that was why he was the way he was. I
had been with him for 15 years, and forgot how love could
really be between two people. For years, we only existed
in the same house. I took care of all of the bills, took
care of the children, did all of the yardwowrk,
housework, etc.... He never cooked or did laundry or
anything. I also had a full time job, ALWAYS. He did not
want me to go out, (he didn't think it was right for
married women to go out). I was always invited to go
camping with my sister or to concerts or different
functions, and he forbid me to go. He criticized
everything I did, it was never good enough for him. He
did allow me to go to work though, I guess he liked the
money. I poured myself into my job, and was very good at
what I did. But after a while between my job and being
miserable at home, it was all too much. I would try to
show him affection at night while he was watching TV, and
he either didn't respond or pushed me away like I was a
nuisance. So after a while, I got tired of it.
After being on-line for about 6 months, I met this
guy, who was very nice and WANTED to hear what I had to
say and how I felt. It was wonderful, someone wanting to
know what I thought and respected my opinion. I was not
looking to have an affair, but when I realized someone
cared about me for ME, and the way I was and all my
faults, (unconditionally), I knew there was something
better than what I had. Things progressed quickly between
my lover and me. The first time I met him, it was like an
instant love. I had NEVER in my whole life felt like
that. It was so intense, or maybe I was so loved starved,
I didn't realize what was happening. Nevertheless, it
made me feel whole and like a woman should feel. After
several months of seeing this guy, exchanging hundreds of
e-mails, and hundreds of telephone calls, I finally told
my SO that I was in love with someone else.
Even then, he DID not get it. He thought what I wanted
was for him to clean the house and cook and do laundry.
He tried bringing flowers home. He really tried to win me
back, but it didn't work. He would ask me..."What do
I need to do". I did not have the answer, because I
really didn't know what my lover did for me, or why I
felt the way I did about him. Everytime we tried to talk
about it, we always ended up fighting. He would tell me
no one could make me happy, and how I had a chip on my
shoulder, and that I was stupid, and over emotional and
that I should stop feeling period. Those words drove me
further and further away. It didn't matter what he did or
how many dishes or loads of laundry he did, that was not
what I wanted. (I still did not know what it was I wanted
or needed at that time)
After leaving him and coming back 2 times, I thought I
knew what it was I wanted. I thought that we could work
through it all, but again, each time we had a
conversation, it always ended up the same. Him condemning
me and criticizing my feelings. So I left for the third
and last time. I came to realize I could not tell him how
to be, act, or feel. That was something he had to do on
his own. I didn't think he would ever realize that
either. I thought he needed some lonely woman that him
working, providing for her would be enough. I had to many
ideas, goals, and things I wanted to accomplish yet in my
life to be tied down by someone as narrow-minded as him.
After a few weeks, one of the lady's he was seeing,
gave him the book, and that is how we got to this point.
I had learned a great deal about myself and
relationships by this time. I knew how they were supposed
to be or could be. That is what prompted me to find out
more about what was under his "hard skin". Now
that he said he understood what it was a woman needs, and
that I understood what a man needs, we wanted to know
everything about each other. All of the things we had
been missing about each other all of those years. We
figured out that there is alot more to life than we ever
imagined, and wanted to consume it all.
Things are not perfect now, and I do not expect them
to be, but they are better than they have been in years.
We have many problems that we are trying to work out, but
at least I know that I CAN stand up and speak my mind
without him criticizing me. He may not like what it is I
have to say or do, but at least he accepts it without
verbally judging me. I know I can be myself ..the way I
want to be, and do not have to worry about what he
thinks. I tried for so long to be the "perfect
wife". To make sure there was never any arguments or
disagreements. Well, I learned that everyone is different
and it is ok to argue or have different opinions. It's
NORMAL!!!!! I do not have to allow him to control me. I
control my own actions, feelings and destiny. I can be
independent and sill be married at the same time. It is a
wonderful feeling too.
The time I spent away, well that was very hard for me.
It was very lonely and I cried alot. But, at least now I
know I can be on my own, or alone and everything will be
ok. I CAN DO IT!! I have never done that before. I always
had him or my lover by my side, and it was very scary
being out there all alone, that far from home. That was
when I did most of my soul searching. And found out alot
of things about myself that I didn't like. So now I have
a new challenge...and that is working on and taking care
of me for a while. I wish everyone could be at peace with
themselves. It is as very nice feeling.
From: Dean
PD, I have to say that your letter brought tears to my
eyes....I think it hit home. I was in a long term
relationship with my SO for almost four years.We were not
married, but it was almost like being married. I won't go
into it all now as my past posting are here.....but your
situation mirrors a lot of ours. I have gone to therapy
and have been working on me. I won't go on, but I just
had to let you know that I can relate with your situation
totally! I just wished ours would come around like yours
has. Thanks for sharing your story.
From: trish
Dear mzet, Please look deep within your heart and see
the great courage and love it took Josie and pd to share
their souls with you. I read their postings and trembled
and cried for them. I too, tossed and turned last night.
Dear friend, these loving women are trying to reach out
to you, in attempt to answer the turmoil you are going
through, and to give you comfort and understanding. To
open and share as they did, they allowed painful wounds
to become raw for you.
I too, have a story to share with you, but don't as
yet know how to start and finish. First let me say a few
things on affairs. Please bear with me, I haven't read
any of the wonderful books I hear mentioned, Yet, I have
always been an avid reader, my loss. There are many types
of affairs. The sinful ones, in which there is simply
selfishness involved, the thrill of the affair. I quit a
good paying, full benefit job, to get away from that
atmosphere, (in this case, now over 3 years later, you
know what, it has all come back at them, and they are all
divorced, very sad). But mzet, these are the affairs that
are all around us, and yes it is sin.
Then there are the affairs that are discussed on this
forum, I would really like a different term for these
types, but yes this is the real world, and an affair is
an affair. How about an emotional inflicted affair. In my
opinion, experience and the experiences of others that I
have cared and listened to throughout my life, have been
emotional inflicted "affairs". Affair,
apparently means sex. The affairs that I am referring to
were not 'started' for sex. If you can get the 'sex' out
of affair, maybe a new understanding will come about.
Take, for just a moment, "rape", rape is not
about "sex", rape is an assault brought on by
the need to control. Am I making any sense?
What I am trying to say, in my experience and those I
have shared with, there was not an 'emotional, growing'
bond with their partner. Just from my experience dear
mzet, I have seen, that "the affair" either
brought two people closer, OR it meant that they were not
meant to be together. I believe that two lives are
brought together for a purpose, and that purpose may not
become visible until later down the road. I believe with
my heart and soul, that there is always a blessing
waiting with every tear, and every tortured heart.
My first husband could have written many of your
postings, except, I didn't have the 'affair' until we
separated. GUILT dear one? I attempted to end my life 3
times, but God would not allow it (if it is necessary to
go into that, I will, just ask). Five years after our
divorce, he phoned me, and said 'I've waited five years
for you", I said "I know, and I love and
respect you as always, but I can't be married to
you". He then said, "I'm going to ask someone I
have met to marry me", and mzet we cried and cried
together. They have been married for over 18 years,
happily. And I have become, and still becoming, who I am,
with a peaceful soul.
My first husband and I share an unspoken love and
respect for each other. Our 3 kids are proof of that.
Just some thoughts mzet, God Bless You Dear Sir. God has
a plan of all that believe.
From: Josie
Thank you, thank you Trish. You've made the hurt I am
feeling at the moment more bearable with your kindness.
The reason why I told of my affair was, to try and help
other people who might be confused about how affairs
start. I didn't know it would hurt so much to bare my
heart like that, and to be quite honest the moment I
pushed the 'send' button, I regretted it.
I was so emotionally upset that when I tried to
breastfeed my baby daughter I could not get any milk out.
You will understand how sad this made me feel because you
are a woman and because of your very compassionate
nature. Yes, I am ashamed of my mistake... but I also
know in my heart that if the marriage had been of a more
fair nature I would not have fallen it love with the
other guy.
And yes, I will use the expression 'fall in love' just
like I use the expression' to fall out of love'. To me it
is just a term that can mean different things to
different people and I don't see the need to dissect it.
I know that I, 'fell' in love with him and I also know
that I could never now have an affair because I have a
very good relationship. OK sometimes we argue and don't
see 'eye to eye'...But who doesn't?
I am not saying I was not responsible for what
happened just that I did so. I agree with you very much.
I am so glad you did not succeed in taking your own life.
If you ever need to talk about it, you know where I am.
From: trish
My Dear Josie, It is now time to let go of the shame.
By the time I got to the end of your posting about your
past, I was trembling terribly for you. I was feeling all
of your emotions and I prayed, Dear God, give her peace,
and show her that what she just shared, will become a
blessing. I know how difficult it is to bear one's soul.
I know that because of the women we are, we want to
shout, 'don't judge me until you have walked in these
shoes'. Women like us have GREAT morals, values, love for
others. Women like us, take on others grief and have the
courage and real desire to help and to guide, and truly
pray for everyone to have peace and joy in their lives.
We are God's special ones. We have endured great
pains, we have endured judgement by others. Josie, I have
NO REGRETS for the paths I chose. I stand tall and proud.
We are all born with a gift from God at birth, it is up
to us to come to realize what that gift is. All of my
life, I could look in someone's face and eyes, and know
they were carrying a burden. But I was inexperienced.
When I share past experiences, I feel no pain, I feel
blessed, to have experienced, to be able to understand.
My past is like a dream, where I am sitting on God's lap
looking down at all of it, and seeing that all around me,
someone (many) are in those same situations, looking for
a hand to reach out. I am not afraid to reach out and I
am not afraid to walk in the dark to pick someone up and
carry them out.
After my divorce from my first husband, my children's
father, I allowed such intense guilt to enter my life,
due to who I am. I made many, many wrong choices dear
one. I tried and tried to find a way that I could go back
to my husband, I couldn't, I just couldn't. One night,
the children were with their father, and I sat looking
out over the lake in the darkness (there was a bottle of
tranquilizers in the cabinet, funny because I can't take
them because I suffer with headaches afterwards, but had
them). I stared out over the lake and sky and cried 'God
why have you forsaken me, I am not worthy to live'. My
eyes quickly went to the cabinet, then suddenly, I began
to tremble , shaking terribly, freezing. Went trembling
to my bed, got in, pulled up the covers. I know what
lonely is, Dear Josie, I was EMPTY, my soul was gone, I
can't even explain the feeling, I cried Dear Lord,
forgive me, you have not forsaken me, I need You. Gently,
as a father wrapping his arms around his child, warmth
began to fill my body, the tears were gently being wiped
from my cheeks, and I drifted to sleep. (I believed I had
committed adultery, and would never be forgiven.)
A little time went by, and again the children were
with there father. Everytime I would see my ex, the guilt
would become uncontrollable. I'm an adulteress, I am not
worthy. Well, the one and only thing my daddy ever taught
me was, was to shoot. I always had a weapon or two for
sport shooting (at a range). I don't know why, but I
walked into the room where my pistol was, and put it to
my temple, finger on the trigger and started to put
pressure on the trigger, when a voice so loud in my head
said 'CHILD I NEED YOU, I NEED YOUR HEART IN THIS WORLD
OF HATE', I quickly put down the pistol. Frantic, I
grabbed my car keys (I had bought a car from a man, when
I picked it up, he said, now look, those seatbelt
warnings drive me crazy, so I have disconnected all of
the seatbelt warning/alarms, so remember to put your seat
belt on, because you won't get a reminder). I got in my
car, and started driving down the hwy. along the lake. I
knew exactly where I was going, there was an open place
lined with telephone poles, where no one else would be
around. I was just about there, had the pole in sight,
headed for it, BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP., went the
seatbelt warning, it startled me, and I got back
straight, and had to pull over. Turned around and went
back home. The next day I took the car to a garage and
asked them to check the wiring for the seatbelt warning,
and they said, lady, it is not connected.
I walked down many more paths after this, but now I
realized that God still loved me and had a plan for me.
Many journeys followed, with many more lessons learned.
In February 1994, I finally, and truly forgave myself,
for divorcing my first husband and for the first time,
could stand back and look at my travels through new eyes.
My baby, who is almost 23, befriends everyone. She has
a few single mom friends who she loves and supports. She
has a deep desire to learn and understand people and is a
blessing to everyone she touches. She loves God. She does
worry me though, she is too much like her mom. I use to
street race, and was never beat, now she has a sports
car. 2 weeks ago she said, mom I'm thinking of buying a
motorcycle, (just sold mine when I moved here), I think I
talked her out of that one. My 3 children range from 22
1/2 to 27 1/2. They are not perfect, no one is. By
allowing my spirit to grow, it has flowed through my kids
and I couldn't be prouder. They are living, and searching
for their soul mates, no marriages or babies as of yet.
You can laugh at me, they do, I told them no weddings
till they are 32, they say 'OOOOOOkay, mom' LOL.
From: Josie
My dear Trish: You have no idea the effect your letter
had on me. I cried and smiled at the same time. Your
children sound wonderful. I am sure that they are a
reflection of you and you must be so proud of them!! I
must admit for all the 'pain in the behind' behaviour and
stages they go through, mine also seem to have acquired
the 'knack' for loving and reaching out for other people
who need them.
People are always saying what are bunch of loving kids
they are. Like you say, dear trish, we must've done
something right. Mine know that they can always come and
talk to me and that they are unconditionally love for who
they are. Actually I think I will try the "no
marriage until 32" 'thing'!!...with them.:):) Trish,
you are an angel.
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