 |
 Four year relationship gone? -
DWN
I'll try to keep this as short as possible! I was with
this girl for four years. I started seeing her when she
first got separated. Things went great and we were very
compatible. Well after the first two years, she was
looking for marriage, but I told her I thought it would
be a good idea to wait as she still had unresolved issues
from the marriage. She also has two daughters and I felt
it would be better for all of us to hold out for a while.
We split once which she initiated, but later got back
together after she called and asked if we could try
again. I agreed as I loved her.
The third year came and I got a job promotion. The
stress level was a lot more than I had bargained for and
this hurt our relationship as she told me she felt
ignored. I now agree with that. Anyway, she said she
couldn't got any longer with this, so we split again.
After a couple months, I realized just how much she and
the kids meant to me and I called and ask if we could try
and get it together. She said that would be good, but she
had been seeing someone else and she didn't want to hurt
him. As we talked more, she revealed he was 22 years old.
We are both 40. I was totally shocked. She told me he was
easy to talk to, but knew this wasn't something that
could go on. Well, we got back together, but she stayed
in contact with this guy....mainly by him calling her a
lot. He even called when I was there and I told her I
thought this was over. She again stated that she didn't
want to hurt him, but I felt she was hurting him more by
letting him hang on.
After a couple months together, she told me she was
having a tough time regaining the feelings she once had
for me. I felt that a lot of this was the influences she
had from this younger guy. She had told me this was over,
but we had lunch one day and had a heart to heart talk.
She told me she had slept with him while we had been back
together. I was furious. I felt that she was jeopardising
not just me, but also herself. We have always had a
wonderful sex life and both knew that. She told me that
day that she now knew the difference in just sex and
making love. She noted that we made love and didn't just
have sex. Well, anyway, she told me she couldn't stay in
this with me so we parted. I wrote her a letter and told
her we would be friends as she had indicated she wanted
to remain friends. I got a letter back from her and in
the letter she told me she did not want to keep the lines
of communication open and the best thing to do was a
clean break.....that we had been too much to each other
to be just friends. She called me about a week later to
see how I was doing as I quite my job and went in
business for myself. I told her I didn't expect to hear
from her again. She told me she had written the letter at
work and didn't have much time to think.
We have talked several times in the past month since
we parted...she has called me and I have called her. I
get a lot of mixed signals from her. I really believe she
wants to be with me, but has a lot of baggage she needs
to try and dump. I have decided not to call her
anymore...maybe I need to just leave her alone to sort
things out. She is no longer seeing the younger guy and
ask me what was she thinking. I responded by saying I
don't know as only you know the answer. Do you think we
have a chance to revive our love or is it gone to far to
rekindle? I love this woman and had hoped we would marry.
She means a lot to me.....more than she knows even though
I have told her so. Thanks for your comments!
 From: Bernd
“Do you think we have a chance to revive our love
or is it gone to far to rekindle? I love this
woman...”. It seems what you’re really
wondering is: is there a chance SHE can revive her love?
My reading of your situation is that you are both
involved in a dance where each of you are looking for the
other to meet certain expectations before each of you are
really ready to commit. You are looking for her to
resolve “old baggage” to your satisfaction (and
now that baggage includes the 22 year old), while I
suspect she wants to feel the type of passion and a kind
of “freedom to be truly herself” with you, that
she felt with the 22 year old. Both of you are rebelling
against each other’s expectations inside, at a very
gut level. I’m not surprised by the attraction: both
of you hold important keys to some very deep issues I
suspect both of you are dealing with.
Let me take a few guesses. Do you find it difficult to
just play, laugh, and have “sex” without a deep
emotional connection while you’re making love? When
you found out about her affair, did you have any periods
where you REALLY cried, or yelled out in rage, or kicked
or pounded something in anger? I have had a problem with
MY emotions most of my life, and “being
rational” was one way I protected myself. It’s
a common guy thing, and I suspect you may have the same
kind of struggle.
For her, I suspect inside she feels as if “time
is running out”. She knows the type of passion and
“love” she’s looking for is possible, and
is real, and she may be on a frantic search to find it.
At 40, she likely feels she doesn’t have a lot of
time left. Her affair, to me, was a way to get back in
contact with those feelings, a way to reassure herself
that they are in fact REAL, and achievable.
She doesn’t get them with you - she may get part,
but inside I suspect that she feels there’s
“something missing” - and that
“something” likely has a lot to do with you
need to use “rationality” as a way of
protecting yourself from overwhelming emotions. To commit
to you means she’d have to give up hope of having
all those feelings, and take what she can get.
Rationally, we can make the argument that we never get
everything we want out of a relationship, or life. But
the other side to that is that when we sacrifice
something important to us, we end up only partially
living anyway.
You are both contributing half of the love in this
relationship, and half of the problems. As long as you
focus on her half, instead of yours, the dance
you’re in will continue, even tho you may dance from
opposite sides of the room.
If you want to get some of the hidden gifts this
relationship can give you, the dance has to change.
Accepting her WITH all her old baggage, and giving her
the complete freedom to deal with it on HER schedule is a
healthy way of changing that dance. Talking about her
affair, and asking her to tell you what she discovered
about herself in it is very loving, and healthy for both
of you - it will give you important clues about her, and
more importantly about yourself. Changing the
relationship from an all-or-nothing kind, to a
one-day-at-a-time kind can give you both the chance to
learn a lot more about each other, without the pressures
of the all-or-nothing cloud hanging over your head.
The expectations each of you have (and many of them
may be subconscious expectations) are ways of protecting
yourselves against hurt, and pain. But they are like
walls - while they keep the pain out, they also prevent
real love from getting in.
In our marriage, Lynda and I have come closer to
embracing pain, and hurt. They are a natural part of any
relationship, and instead of being our enemies, they are
like alarm bells that tell us something we believe or are
doing is hurting us. Most times, we don’t CAUSE each
other pain, as much as we trip open each other’s
trapdoors of buried pain from the past. That increased
acceptance of pain has helped us find the type of love we
both always knew was out there, a type of love we had
despaired of ever feeling. Acceptance - not just partial
acceptance, but full acceptance - of everything about
each other is necessary for real love to blossom. The
more acceptance I’m able to find in myself, the more
happiness I find, and the more I WANT EVERY
“imperfection” and piece of old baggage Lynda
has. They all hold keys to MY healing and happiness
(they’re not the only keys, but I really like her
set!).
That’s my 2 cents, my best guesses on what’s
happening in your situation. I hope something I said
helps in some small way.
From: DWN
Thank you for the insight! I agree with you on what
was said and believe it to be true in our relationship.
The thing that bothers me is that I get so many mixed
signals from her. She told me about two months ago that
she had been at a stoplight and saw a guy next to her
with a wedding band on......she said she could envision
that being me married to her! I never know what to think,
but you hit the nail on the head.....I have to look at
myself and accept ME for what I am before I can accept
another. Relationships are tough. I haven't talk with her
in three weeks, figuring it would be better to just let
her be alone and work on herself. Is this the right thing
to do? I feel that if I call, she will get the feeling
that I am hung-up on her and will push her away. I have
made some mistakes in this relationship and she has too.
As for the 22 yr old, she told me the last time we spoke
that it was all over......and ask me why she would have
done something like that. I could not respond, and just
said I don't know.......even though I know some of the
reasons.....as you mentioned. Well, thanks again for the
info and I would welcome any additional comments you may
have.
From: Bernd
You asked if calling her was the right thing to do,
and said "I feel that if I call, she will get the
feeling that I am hung-up on her and will push her
away."
If you make your choices based on how you THINK she'll
react, you'll keep yourself in a cage. None of us have
crystal balls that work. Do what feels right to YOU, and
let her decide how she'll react, or what she'll think.
Give her the complete freedom to think the worst,
misinterpret your motives, or think the best. All that is
HER choice, and any attempts you make to control her
reactions is simply put - control. As human beings, we
rebel naturally at any attempts to control our thoughts
and choices. Give her the freedom, and more importantly,
give yourself the same freedom. Do what feels right, the
best you can, and let what happens - happen. My thoughts,
and 2 cents!
From: DWN
I agree with what you have said so far, but the thing
that really gets me is that I have done all the calling
so far except for once when she called me. In my mind she
is telling me that it is over, but that is my mind
telling that and may not really be the case. Anyway, as
for giving her the freedom, and myself the freedom, I
felt that by not calling her this was the freedom. Maybe
I am just crazy or something, but we were together a long
time and it wasn't all "bad times". When we
spoke time before last, she said " you know what I
would like to do? For us to go to the beach for a long
weekend....just as friends w/o the sex." Well, I was
puzzled somewhat, but agreed and told her to let me know
when. I spoke with her last time and she said she had
spoken too soon as her family had several events going on
over the weekends we had discussed. I left it at that. I
just get totally confused. I appreciate the help you have
giving to me so far and I will take your advice to work.
From: DWN
Well Bernd, I did it.......I called her today. I
didn't try to "control" and of her
thoughts.....and will let her interpret it the way she
feels like. We did have a good conversation and enjoyed
talking to each other again. Thanks for the advice and we
will see what happens!
From: Bernd
Way to go guy! You'll have plenty of "slips"
(normal), but when you do, you'll feel anguish and pain,
and those are just your teachers, reminding you to free
her just like you did today. Nice feeling today, eh?:)
From: DWN
Bernd, I have to thank you for the advice. It is a
good feeling to let her have her freedom and that I
didn't have to worry about how she interpreted my call
this week......thanks for giving me the courage to make
that call ! A friend of hers called me the next day and
told me she wanted to call me and ask if we could meet
somewhere in the near future as she wants to give it
another try. Her friend also said that she was trying to
get a lot of her anger out that she has built up. She
even told her friend about my compulsive ways and how
that really got to her. I interpret this as a way she is
letting her anger out by talking with her friends. Am I
correct? Anyway, I'm not holding my breath for her to
call anytime soon, but trying to move forward. I have
made an appointment with a therapist to help ME.I am
really looking forward to the learning process here and
to help me understand myself more. Thanks for all the
education your column has given me and I am sure we will
talk again soon. I will continue to read the materials
here because there is so much to learn in life.
From: Bernd
It is sooo neat to hear the new hope and optimism in
your words. There will be times when things seem hopeless
again, but try to picture the gentle rolling of waves
when they do. The ups and downs are are natural part of
the process - but at least you're feeling more
"ups" than you did before, and that really
helps build faith that things CAN improve.
I'm glad you're going into therapy for YOU.
Ironically, your wife's views and feelings about how you
"manipulate her" will give you valuable clues
to things you are doing that are hurting you, and
preventing you from getting the kind of relationship YOU
want with her. It will probably be quite a while before
she's able to separate what part of those
"manipulations" are actually her reactions to
them, and which parts really belong to you. So don't
expect her to be 100% right, or wrong about them. They're
still her best guesses. But there will be some clues in
each thing she tells you about your past and present
choices that will help you see yourself more clearly.
Bless her and thank her for being a "mirror",
no matter how imperfect a mirror she may be. That will
help a lot to ease the defensiveness that you've been so
used to feeling when she says something about you.
You are inspiring me Dean.:)
From: Dean
Well Bernd, Here I am again! Thanks for your last note
as I do agree. I start my first therapy session today and
I look forward to it. I am having my "downs"
the past few days, but I know this is expected. It really
seems odd though.....I have this feeling inside that
tells me to just let her go and not worry if she comes
back. Is this a sign of recovery? I don't know. Anyway, I
haven't talked with her since I made the last phone call.
Sometimes my "downs" surface when I think about
her not ever calling me. It seems that I am always the
one that initiates the contact. She has told a friend
that she wants me to keep calling her, but I feel this is
not good for MY healing. Am I wrong about this? I also
have noticed the past few days feelings of anger about
her relationship with the other person. I too think this
may be a part of my healing process, but not really sure.
A few times when I felt this anger, If she would have
called at that time I would probably have blown her out!
Maybe I am starting to be able to "feel" things
that I didn't before. Anyway, just wanted to let you know
where I was and I welcome any additional comments from
you.....you have been a great help here! Talk with you
soon...:-)
From: Bernd
Everything sounds right on, and very much part of your
recovery. Keep at it! Nice to have some better days and
moments, eh?:)
From: Dean
Hey Bernd, Thanks a million....again! I had my first
therapy session this week and it went very well. I think
I may have found a good therapist at that! She is very
attentive and can see things even though I jumped around
a lot in the discussion. I feel that I am finally on MY
way to recovery!...for ME! As for my SO, well she called
yesterday and left a message on my answer
machine......but I didn't call her back as she said she
would call me another time. I am not playing a game here,
but I don't feel as if I need to call her back......if
she wants to talk with me, she can do what she says, and
that is she will call again. I have to say that I am
feeling much better these days, but still have some anger
toward my SO when I really think about things. Guess this
is normal....I hope! Anyway, just wanted to say
"thank you" again for the guidance and I will
keep you posted as to how things are going. have a great
4th of July!
From: Dean
Well, here I am again. Not sure where to start, so I
will just throw it all out however it comes. My SO called
last week and left a message on the answer machine. I was
out of town, so I returned the call a few days later.
Conversation was good and I could tell when she answered
and heard it was me she perked up....she seemed happy to
hear from me. Well, I have been thinking a lot lately and
it seems that my feelings for her is starting to drift
away. I guess I have been thinking too much about the
whole affair thing and I get feelings that I should just
pick up my pieces and move on without her. When we have
talked, she gives no indication as to getting back
together even though some mutual friends says she always
ask about me and if they have talked with me. I get so
confused! Is this normal? Am I betting a dead horse that
is not going to come back alive? Anyway, my therapy is
going really well and I am learning......and enjoying the
learning process! I have a great therapist who is very
attentive and can put pieces together rather quickly when
spotted. Not much else to say, just wanted your input on
my situation. Thanks for the help!
From: Bernd
I suspect that it's the feelings of "need"
for her (codependency) which are easing, as you accept
"what is" more, and let go. Search for ways to
replace those feelings with better ones, based on loving
choices. Your therapist should be able to help you with
that. Regarding the "betting", let the future
bring what it will. Chuck the crystal ball. The more you
try to live each day fully, making choices that listen to
your inner voice as much as you can, the better each day
will be, and the better the future will be as a direct
result - whatever that future is.
Glad to see the therapy is helping. Use it as ONE of
your tools. How about browsing the library and/or
bookstore regularly, and picking up reading on
relationships? Also, you'll find a lot of cyberhugs and
reinforcement on email support forums that deal with
codependency and/or relationships. Check them out!
Remember, this lifetime is still young.:)
From: Dean
Yes......I have been working on chucking that crystal
! Looks like I am getting there. Therapy is but one of my
options: I have read several books thus far on
relationships, etc. and have learned a lot. I even bought
her one of the same books when were still together, but
she only read a small part of it.......told me she didn't
want a relationship where she had to read material to
make it work. Oh well, I beg to differ as it DOES take a
lot of work & effort on both parties to make a
relationship work. Anyway, I am doing MUCH better these
days as I am working on ME and not on us. I can only
better ME and not force the SO to do anything...it has to
be HER decision. I am letting go more and more each
day.....and it gets easier as the days past. Susan also
responded to my letter to you, which I much
welcome.......always good to hear others' views. Thanks
again for insightfulness and all the help along the way.
I am beginning to just live one day at a time now....and
trying not to look back!
From: Bernd
You are an inspiration to others that are afraid they
can't "let go" or find a road that leads to
light at the end of the tunnel. Just thought I'd remind
you of that!:) Your efforts are like ripples in a
pond...they help others in ways you're only beginning to
be aware of. That make something sing inside?:)
From: Susan
Hi Dean, Just jumping in here although it was
addressed to Bernd. You sound MUCH better...... sounds
like you are making some healing choices in your life.
Keep it up !!!!!!
As far as being confused ... well, that is the normal
state for most of us (hehe). But if you are asking
specifically about your SO's actions - look at it like
this - she cares about you as a person, why would she
not? !! YOU are a person worth caring about !! She asks
about you to be sure you are OK, and it is always good to
hear from a person you care about. Obviously, she is a
caring person OR you would not love(d) her !!!!. See, it
is still about you and your choices!
Come join us in our chat if you can. Several of us
have found a wonderful source of support there. One of
our "regulars" called it "cyber
sanity", we loved it !!!! Lots of "cyber
hugs" too!!!!
From: Dean
Hi Susan! Thanks for your perspective on this......and
by all means feel free to jump in anytime you see my
letters as I greatly appreciate the views. You right, I
am MUCH better than I was. I guess I just don't know
where this is all heading. I always got mixed signals
from her in the past and sometimes I still feel this when
we talk...although she is a lot more subtle about it now
than she was before. She is going to the beach in a week
with her family. She told me she was going to drive up to
the beach where we used to frequent when we were
together. I found this odd as she used to tell me she
didn't like it there ( we had one of our biggest
arguments on one vacation there). Anyway, I do appreciate
your views and let them be known..ok? I won't be able to
join you guys for the chat this evening.....got to get
ready to leave town for the week, but Thank you for the
invitation and hope to join the next time. Have a great
time in the chat and talk with you soon. Thanks again!!!
From: Dean
I just wanted to touch base with you guys again since
you have been so much help. My former SO is on vacation
this week with her family. Her birthday is next week and
I had pondered the idea of sending her a card.......but
after thinking about this for a few days, I have decided
not to send her a card ( of any kind...humorous or
otherwise). Yes, the thought did occur to me to send a
card just so she would "think" about me for the
moment. But after going thru all this in my head, I feel
it is not a good idea as it doesn't show the "
letting go " part of the relationship. It has been 2
and half months now since we split. We have talked on
several occasions, but nothing serious. The last
conversation we had, she told me she was going to drive
up to the beach where we used to go and see what was
going on there. I suspect that if she does do this while
she is on vacation, she will call me to tell me what it
was like since we were there last. I don't know if we
will get back together again, but I am not
"waiting" to see if she comes around to talk
about what has happened. I guess you could say that I am
finally on my way to really letting go.
If the situation did arise for us to talk about
things, what should I do? I don't want to be harsh, but I
also need to say my peace! I had a lot of anger the month
that followed our breakup and now coming to grips with
it........but I don't want things to be " the way
they were" as we really need to resolve some issues
if we did get back together. I have found that since we
have been apart, I have been reading a lot on
relationships, etc. and finding out a lot of where we
probably went wrong. But I am only 50% of the equation
and I am working on ME thru therapy, reading , etc. But
for her? She is not doing anything to see what has
happened. Always an excuse for not seeking therapy,
reading books, etc., but I can't do anything about
that.....I can only make ME a better person. Well, sorry
this is so long, but I just wanted to vent for a minute.
Any suggestions from you guys is appreciated. Thanks
again for bringing me to reality and knowing that I CAN
be better than I was before!
From: Susan
Hi there, Glad to hear you are continuing your
progress with "letting go".
One thing you said though kind of made me wonder...
you said "it doesn't show the " letting go
" part of the relationship." Dean, you don't
show it - you FEEL it, it seems like you are still a
little "worried" about the fact that ...
"She is not doing anything to see what has
happened". Sweetie, she may NEVER do anything, that
is the purpose of YOUR recovery and your journey. If it
works out that your recovery and new found health and
happiness is taking you farther away from her - well, so
be it. I don't think it is always "meant" to
be. Maybe you needed her to start you on your journey,
but she is not willing to be a travelling companion! You
may find some new ones along the way though !!!
If she calls, just state you feelings but try to do it
without the anger. Use "I" statements, not
"you" statements. Quick - read a book or two
about constructive discussion (as opposed to angry
arguments). It is all right that you express your
feelings, that is all part of "letting go"
too!! Hugs & prayers.
From: Dean
Thanks for your last comments. I just wanted to get
your opinion on something. My ex SO has a birthday coming
up next week. I have been contemplating sending her a
card. What do you think? I am well on my way to letting
go and didn't know if this make send a signal of control,
wanting her back, or something of that nature. Just
wanted to hear your response. Thanks for listening and
being there.......all you guys are great!!
From: Susan
I have a couple of ex-"friends" that I keep
in touch with, one was my SO for 9 years !!! We parted
VERY uncomfortably. Actually, I dumped him for the man I
married and am now divorcing !! After a couple of years,
we ran into each other somewhere and it was weird at
first, but we started talking and both of us realized
that there was nothing of the "old"
relationship left - except a sense of friendship. We did
spend 9 years of our lives together and basically watched
each others kids grow up. This gives us a lot of history,
lots of "remember when" and quite a few laughs.
There is no passion, anger or sadness left, just a
loose friendship. If I ever needed anything - he would be
there and the reverse is true for me. After I left my
husband, he was one of the people I could REALLY talk to.
Oddly, he was very sad to hear the news, and supportive
of my decision once he learned the reasons. At no time
though, has there ever been even the slightest temptation
to "go back" (believe me!). All I found was a
friend I thought I had lost.
For the past few years, I have called him on or near
his birthday, he on mine, and always a Christmas wish.
(He never was a card person). BUT it could not have
happened right at the beginning. My feeling about your
question is that yes, it is a symptom of "hanging
on". BUT, that does not make it a right or wrong
feeling. It is very soon now after your breakup and your
feelings are still strong, even though hers might not be,
at least not in the same way.
Is it sincerely a wish for her to have a great
birthday? Or is it a way to "make" her think of
you, at least for a few moments? Will she call you to
thank you? Will you talk awhile? Will she say she made a
big mistake and wants you back? Are these the questions
in your mind? If so, don't send it - you are setting
yourself up for a fall.
If it is only a SINCERE wish that a 'buddy' of yours
have a good birthday - with no response expected, then
send a funny lighthearted card. One you would send to a
co-worker or someone like that. If you find yourself
wanting to send a "mushy" card - it is probably
time to sit down and re-evaluate your reasons and
expectations. I know how hard this is for you. Really I
do, but I don't want a 'buddy' of mine to get hurt !!!!!
You'll know the "right" thing to do - for YOU,
if you think about it.
From: Dean
Thanks for the comments Susan. I agree with everything
you said. I know though.....if I do send a card, even if
it is a lighthearted card, she will call me and want to
talk for a while. I don't have a problem with that, but I
know she is up to seeing what is going on with me and if
I am with someone. She has thrown these hints out before,
just like I mentioned about her going to the beach with
her family and driving up to the beach where we used to
go. I still have a lot of mixed emotions about
her.....sometimes I feel anger for what she did to me,
and other times I feel like she was the "one"
for me. Still, at other times I get a feeling that I am
better off w/o her. Does this make any sense to you? I
know I wasn't the best mate to have around at times, but
I did put forth some effort. Sometimes I feel she is
afraid to really call me and talk thru things, as the
times she has called it has been from work. I get the
feeling that she is somewhat embarrassed to call from her
home because her two girls will know who she is talking
to.....and will have to explain why she is talking to me
again after she told them it was over. She has always
lived for her girls and never for herself.......so she
would have to admit to a mistake or an error if she
talked to me with them around. When we were together, I
wanted to be someone for her girls to look up to and be
able to talk to. Yes, I did set boundaries and this did
upset them and my SO at times, but it was out of the
goodness of my heart to help them grow and learn. I guess
I didn't score too many points there!Anyway, I am
starting to ramble on and on. I do "thank you"
for your comments and always welcome any suggestions or
opinions you may have. Thanks again.
From: Dean
Just wanted to relay the latest to all that have
offered the support and guidance in the past. I finally
decided to sent my SO a birthday card for best wishes
only. My therapist told me it could be a good thing to do
to help me progress. Anyway, I knew that is I sent a card
she would call me. I sent just a plain card like I would
sent to any friend...nothing romantic, etc. When she
called, she said "thank you" for the card. We
talked for a while on small subjects, nothing deep or
threatening to each other. Then she ask if we could meet
for lunch one day. I checked my schedule and told her
what I had available, so we made the arrangement. Well,
today we had lunch. I really could not believe how calm
we both were as we started discussing some issues of the
past! For the first time, I told her we were finally
communicating our needs of each other without trying to
use a bulldozer to do it! We continued this lunch for
almost 2 hours! I feel like weight has been lifted off me
now that I got to express my hurts from the pass. One
thing that really struck me was her telling me that she
has started forgiving me of some past
"mistakes" that I had made as well. It was
enlightening to see that she has started working on her
end as well as I have......and the first was for us to
forgive and move forward. I don't know where this will
lead....and I am not going to predict where it will lead
as I can only do TODAY and not the future. I did get a
strong feeling that she really wants to try and get back
ontrack together although she did not come right out and
say so. One of the last things we discussed was
honesty.....and it was great that we got that out in the
open. She made a comment: " yes, I think the best
thing we can do is to be honest with each other". I
welcomed these words as it has not always been there.
Anyway, enough of my rambling....just thought I would
pass this on to you guys that have been so helpful to me!
I'm still living one day at a time!
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